Competing in hunters and dressage: is it possible?

[DMK]

I think it depends on the horse and the level of showing in both. Do I think a solid foundation in dressage is good for any horse? Absolutely. But there is a whole lot of waiting for the rider in dressage and a whole lot of being left alone to do the job in hunters.

It’s part of a spectrum in all horse sports, that I think range from significant independence on the part of the horse (I think of cutting as the epitome of this type of equine sport) to always waiting for what the rider asks next (to me upper level dressage is the ultimate expression of waiting) And a whole lot of sports that fall on the range somewhere in between. I think of top level hunters as closer to cutting horses in that spectrum. So is cross country but the key difference there is if you need to intervene and give instructions in a more obvious manner, as long as you are clean and fast, that will not impact your score. Unfortunately, instructions that are obvious get you no rewards in your hunter scoring.

All equine sports have really devolved into favoring a specialized competitor in the last decade (or more), so if you are trying to excel at both without understanding these kind of differences, you may frustrate your horse (and yourself). But if you get it, and you know where you are making concessions for one discipline or the other, and you are good with that, I think it is awesome to try both!

(that said, my brain has been mildly exploding in the last few weeks as I make the seasonal switch from CDE to ridden dressage, and I have no little experience with playing around in different disciplines over the years)

[pluvinel]

@DMK

I think it depends on the horse and the level of showing in both. Do I think a solid foundation in dressage is good for any horse? Absolutely. But there is a whole lot of waiting for the rider in dressage and a whole lot of being left alone to do the job in hunters.

…

(that said, my brain has been mildly exploding in the last few weeks as I make the seasonal switch from CDE to ridden dressage, and I have no little experience with playing around in different disciplines over the years)

If you are used to driving, then you are used to communicating with a horse without sitting on its back. That skill can be carried over to dressage.

My belief for both dressage and jumping is that the rider is responsible for setting up the horse for success, and then getting out of its way to let the horse do its job.

You want to jump a 3’ combination, then you have to come in at the proper speed and can’t expect the horse to bail you out because the rider over-rode the jump. It requires timing and tact from the rider.

Same with dressage…you develop the language for our work, then get out of the horse’s way to let him/her execute…be it lateral work, piaffe, or extended gaits.

In all cases with a horse, you are dealing with how to communicate with an animal, along with training and developing that animal gymnastically to do the discipline.

Then again, I like hot forward horses that “take you to the jump…”

When the US Equestrian Team was a powerhouse in jumping, Bert DeNemethy said that jumping was dressage with obstacles in the way.

Same with Jack LeGoff…he used a lot of dressage in training the eventing riders of his time.

[DMK]

@pluvinel

If you are used to driving, then you are used to communicating with a horse without sitting on its back. That skill can be carried over to dressage.

My belief for both dressage and jumping is that the rider is responsible for setting up the horse for success, and then getting out of its way to let the horse do its job.

You want to jump a 3’ combination, then you have to come in at the proper speed and can’t expect the horse to bail you out because the rider over-rode the jump. It requires timing and tact from the rider.

Same with dressage…you develop the language for our work, then get out of the horse’s way to let him/her execute…be it lateral work, piaffe, or extended gaits.

In all cases with a horse, you are dealing with how to communicate with an animal, along with training and developing that animal gymnastically to do the discipline.

Then again, I like hot forward horses that “take you to the jump…”

When the US Equestrian Team was a powerhouse in jumping, Bert DeNemethy said that jumping was dressage with obstacles in the way.

Same with Jack LeGoff…he used a lot of dressage in training the eventing riders of his time.

Yes, I am familiar with the similarities between driving and dressage and even hunters and dressage. My current implosion has a lot more to do with olde brainz versus new tests and a different approach to geometry (it has to do with front axles vs. front legs, the aforementioned olde brainz… oh yes, and also the loss of my favorite aids, which we were both rather fond of).

That said, for all the extensive work I did on my hunters to carry themselves around (and throw in a some Littauer while I’m at it), what I really wanted them to do was start with the assumption we were going to hunt down the line to the next fence in front of them until I said otherwise. What I really want from my dressage horse is to start with the assumption that I could change it up at any step and not to assume anything. It shouldn’t need to be said they have to have the physical tools to do either job, that those tools are largely the same and some people call it “dressage” … and yet I suspect it must be said after all.

Some horses are amazing and can tackle the mental challenges of both, and some trainers are amazing (I feel confident if they threw a hunter derby section in the middle of #notrolex, Michael Jung would add a new discipline to shame us all), but as you get to the higher levels in either sport, it may be asking a lot of the average horse (or rider) to be excellent at both, and let’s face it, most of us are striving to be barely above average

Legal disclaimer: The aforementioned post should no way be confused with saying dressage is not a useful tool to develop a balanced, responsive partnership between a horse and rider. #andyetitwillbe

[Scribbler]

@pluvinel

Sigh…I feel reallyyyyy old.

Back in the dark ages…like when the earth cooled and dressage was just starting out in the US, the objective of the Training, First and Second levels was to attract hunter-jumper riders to try dressage. So it is indeed very possible to ride in both disciplines.

If you look at the George Morris Horsemastership Clinics on USEF TV, everything he does in his flat work is basic dressage, including lateral work (shoulder-in, haunches-in, and half-pass).

I rode with an old Cavalry Colonel who said “Dressage doesn’t start til Prix St. George.” What he meant was that everything up to the FEI levels was basic foundational work for all disciplines and the specialization called Dressage didn’t really diverge until PSG.

Just curious as to when lower level dressage was introduced in North America.

I know we had no dressage locally up through the mid 80s and people who didn’t jump went in flat classes. And when I returned to riding in the oughts, riding training or first level dressage seemed to be the grand dream of many adult re-riders or newbies, and flat or rail classes had disappeared except for breed and schooling shows.

So I’m guessing lower level dressage was invented late 80s? I’ve tried to Google “History of Dressage” but just get all the 18th century stuff!

[Peggy]

@Scribbler I remember going to watch someone ride a first level test in the late 60’s or early 70’s. At that time there was a jump at the end of the test as a test of obedience.

The California Dressage Society was formed in 1967.
https://horsesdaily.com/article/you’ve-come-long-way-baby-california-dressage-society-celebrates-50-years

[Scribbler]

@Peggy

@Scribbler I remember going to watch someone ride a first level test in the late 60’s or early 70’s. At that time there was a jump at the end of the test as a test of obedience.

The California Dressage Society was formed in 1967.
https://horsesdaily.com/article/you’ve-come-long-way-baby-california-dressage-society-celebrates-50-years

Ok, good to know! I’m in Canada, and while we follow California trends, we are usually way behind them!

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

…

So I’m guessing lower level dressage was invented late 80s? I’ve tried to Google “History of Dressage” but just get all the 18th century stuff!

Ummm no…try +40 years prior…DISCLAIMER: This history is off the top of my head…but I think it is fairly accurate.

The USDF GMO called CAMDA (Carl Asmis Memorial Dressage Association) was named after Carl Heinrich Asmis, a colonel in the German cavalry during Wold War I. He emigrated to the United States in 1921, a time when dressage was unheard of in the United States. He worked as a riding instructor in New York City until 1934, when he relocated to Maryland. He then trained hunters and jumpers at Durland’s Riding Club of Lutherville, MD.

In the years following World War II, there was a group of displaced European Cavalry officers who migrated to the US and who taught dressage and jumping.

After World War II, as dressage interest began to grow in the United States, Col. Asmis began giving clinics. In 1947, Col. Asmis became an AHSA recognized judge. In 1957, he served on the first AHSA Dressage committee, and in 1962, represented the United States at the FEI meeting in Berne, Switzerland where he was instrumental in writing the rules and regulations for equestrian competition of the 1964 Olympic Games. His daughter Helene Asmis, still teaches.

Names of prominent trainers from that era are Bert DeNemethy, Dezso Szilagyi, Bela Buttykai, Istvan Sorenyi Sander, Gabor Foltenyi…those are names off the top of my head, that came from the Hungarian School that was very close in their teachings to those of the Austrian Spanish Riding School after the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian empire post WW-I.

IEO (International Equestrian Organization) predates the USDF and was founded in 1958, and is the oldest GMO.
http://www.ieodressage.org/about-us.html [INDENT][I]The International Equestrian Organization was America’s first dressage club and USDF’s oldest GMO. The late Lilian Wittmack-Roye founded the Pennsylvania-based IEO in 1958. Roye, a native of Denmark, immigrated to the U.S. in 1949 on a one-year contract with Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus.

After her circus career ended, Roye settled in York, PA, and established a training facility, Bri-Mar Stables. Told, “Nobody wants a dressage show,” she proceeded to put on her own, a groundbreaking competition held at Bri-Mar in 1955. The IEO went on to host what some believe to have been the first CDI in the U.S., in 1976. The IEO also hosted the first AHSA recognized dressage show.[/I][/INDENT]

Besides IEO, there were other “dressage clubs” and attempts to mimic the European riding school model scattered in the US…basically in the east coast.

PVDA is the 2nd oldest GMO, and it was founded in 1964.
https://pvda.org/page/history

I believe Trip/Stretch (??) Harting started the Potomac Horse Center (PHC) in the late 1950’s to be a world renowned international equestrian training center intended to provide Olympic level training and teach serious horsemanship. I belive this is where Nuno Oliveira would come to teach in the US. This is where Betty Howett (BHS) taught following the British system.

Linda Zang’s Idlewyld Farm became the teaching base and location of Col. Bengt Lungquist (for whome the BLM championships are named)

There were other riding schools spread throughout the US to take the place of the now obsolete US cavalry schools…Morvern Park, and the American Dressage Institute (ADI) that was founded by a Margarita Serrell, a wealthy patron and based out of the campus of Skidmore College was disbanded in 1974…I believe Dr. Max Gahwyler taught there. ADI had very prominent alumni…I think the Poulins and other notables studied there.

What eventually became the USDF didn’t happen until the 1970’s when Lowell Boomer, founder of the Nebraska Dressage Assn, decided to invite active dressage participants to form a united body to represent dressage in the US…

[pluvinel]

Margarita Serrell’s obituary on COTH…
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/margarita-noble-serrell

Which is relevant to OP’s question as she was jt.-MFH of the Fairfield/Westchester Fox Hounds then went on to judge the 1964 World Junior European Dressage Championship in Denmark.

As I said up-thread…“dressage” as an equestrian specialty does not start til 4th Level-PSG…everything below that is foundational training for a good riding horse…whatever its final discipline will be.

[Scribbler]

My question wasn’t when people started doing dressage in North America but when the lower levels were started as competition?

[Dee-Vee]

I think it is more of a question of how you would be judged than whether it is doable.

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

My question wasn’t when people started doing dressage in North America but when the lower levels were started as competition?

Please read the post (#27) I wrote that answers your question… [INDENT][I]Told, “Nobody wants a dressage show,” she proceeded to put on her own, a groundbreaking competition held at Bri-Mar in 1955.

The IEO went on to host what some believe to have been the first CDI in the U.S., in 1976. The IEO also hosted the first AHSA recognized dressage show.[/I][/INDENT]

Dressage was just a “flat class” with patterns back in those days…with perhaps a jump at the end.

[Scribbler]

@pluvinel

Please read the post (#27) I wrote that answers your question… [INDENT][I]Told, “Nobody wants a dressage show,” she proceeded to put on her own, a groundbreaking competition held at Bri-Mar in 1955.

The IEO went on to host what some believe to have been the first CDI in the U.S., in 1976. The IEO also hosted the first AHSA recognized dressage show.[/I][/INDENT]

Dressage was just a “flat class” with patterns back in those days…with perhaps a jump at the end.

But wouldn’t a CDI be FEI classes?

A post above had mentioned that they remembered the national lower level tests up to Level 4 being brought in to appeal to crossover hunter /jumpers. So my question is, when did these standardized national tests become a thing?

I realize FEI tests and international or Olympic competition started much earlier and of course individual dressage coaches could well have been creating entry level tests for local shows.

But when did USEF and Equine Canada start formalizing training through Level 4 tests as a national thing?

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

But wouldn’t a CDI be FEI classes?

A post above had mentioned that they remembered the national lower level tests up to Level 4 being brought in to appeal to crossover hunter /jumpers. So my question is, when did these standardized national tests become a thing?

I realize FEI tests and international or Olympic competition started much earlier and of course individual dressage coaches could well have been creating entry level tests for local shows.

But when did USEF and Equine Canada start formalizing training through Level 4 tests as a national thing?

Remember there were no “Levels” in US dressage…it was essentially an individual flat class. There was no organized entity in the US…people just copied bits of what was done in Europe.

The US had a dressae presence from the US teams that consisted of cavalry officers. Most of the “lower level” (but there were no levels) was just the stuff that was taught to the young remount recruits.

There was no “dressage”…it was just riding.

From what I remember in the early days, the lower level local dressage tests were just written out patterns…somewhere stuck in a book, I have a test that was mimeographed (yes…the stinky mimeo machines) and written on a typewriter.

Lilian Wittmack Roye used tests from her native Denmark…whatever was used there…to provide the patterns.

Here…I was looking for her obit, and found this on Lillian
https://www.chronofhorse.com/article…fame-inductees [INDENT]After hosting a few unrecognized shows, Roye organized the first American Horse Shows Association recognized dressage show held in this country in 1955—hosting riders from Canada to Michigan. She hand-wrote all of the tests, which she translated from Danish, and judged the show herself. [/INDENT]

[puzzle]

Yes, it can be done. I believe it helps if you have achieved a level of mastery in one before starting the other. You may or may not be able to compete the same horse in both successfully; it depends on the horse’s talents. I started riding dressage a year ago after a lifelong hunter career and have found the transition to be easy, as long as I practice switching my position back and forth; I will practice “dressage” equitation and “hunter” equitation in the same ride, to remind my body of the differences.

It also helps that I have great horses, a great trainer, and access to schoolmasters; I have been able to start schooling most of 3rd in the year I’ve been working on this. I tend to agree that up to 4th is simply horse training; Medal/Maclay finals often include flatwork questions through 3rd level, such as halfpass. However, I think you need to have internalized one discipline’s position before starting the other; I almost never think about my position in the hunter ring at this point. I think if I had come to dressage earlier on, I might have had a harder time keeping the “modes” separate.

Like others have said, Eventers do this all the time! Keep at it and have fun with it

[meupatdoes]

@DMK

Some horses are amazing and can tackle the mental challenges of both, and some trainers are amazing (I feel confident if they threw a hunter derby section in the middle of #notrolex, Michael Jung would add a new discipline to shame us all), but as you get to the higher levels in either sport, it may be asking a lot of the average horse (or rider) to be excellent at both, and let’s face it, most of us are striving to be barely above average

Legal disclaimer: The aforementioned post should no way be confused with saying dressage is not a useful tool to develop a balanced, responsive partnership between a horse and rider. #andyetitwillbe

I don’t understand why you are setting the goal post at “excellent at both” while acknowledging in the next sentence that most normal people are striving for average.

I don’t think OP is trying to ride down centerline at Devon at 4th and then hit the AOs at Capital Challenge within two weeks of each other.

Do we think the ammy adult hunters and lower level dressage are the Olympics or something? “Advanced” and “excellence” entail 4’ solid cross country fences, tempo changes, and hunter derbies taking the high options.
Maybe people like to imagine that what they’re doing is harder than it actually is, but a solid, relaxed, rhythmic 3’ hunter round where the rider sits quietly and lets the horse do the work, and a solid, relaxed third level test where the rider sits quietly and lets the horse do the work (as opposed to working the contact constantly or relying on the double to get an organized lead change done) are actually a highly analogous versions of good riding.

The good hunter rider sets the metronome with their lower back and lets go, the good dressage rider maintains the collection the same way and has no problems with ueberstreichen.

Most aspriring lower level dressage riders are actually working on the same basics that they would need to ride a 3’ hunter course well, and vice versa.

[merrygoround]

A well trained horse will go as the educated rider rides them. So the limiting factor is the rider’s ability to show th horse going as expected for that discipline.

Just don’t suddenly decide to take up cutting, there I don’t think it would work.:winkgrin:

[Peggy]

If anyone is curious there are videos of some of the rides from the flat equitation portion of the NCEA championships here - https://network.theplaidhorse.com/channels/details/ncea

Pick the ones that have a familiar-looking low white fence in them.

These riders have generally done “big eq” - national-level hunter-jumper equitation medals at 3’6" as juniors. They are riding horses that are owned by the colleges or donated for the event and they have very little time with the horse before they go in the ring.

[DMK]

@meupatdoes

I don’t understand why you are setting the goal post at “excellent at both” while acknowledging in the next sentence that most normal people are striving for average.

I can see why you do not understand, since that is a parsed interpretation of a larger post in response to a longer chain of discussion.

#andyetitwillbe