Honest question, no implications – In your opinion @cheektwocheek , how would you describe “this type of horse”?
Asking based on his dismal U.S. show record where he has apparently refused in more classes than not. How does that weigh in your assessment vs. his European show record?
Well said.
OP, do you care more about this horse, or care more about showing? That is the real question, IMO.
If you care more about showing, in your shoes I’d keep looking but also realize that I might be spending more to find a horse that is proven for an ammy rider like myself. Then with luck, any show ring problems are due to me, not due to the horse. I’m more fixable, usually.
I would also be considering leasing, not buying, for the extended time being. It is hard to change horses once an owned horse doesn’t turn out as hoped. Or has a chronic medical issue of some kind, lameness, etc.
To me, given my personal life history with riding horses, the ‘stop’ issue is everything above. It’s (literally) a show-stopper to buying a horse. Especially a horse for the purpose of showing.
Stops take permanent hold in a horse’s brain. It doesn’t matter what age or experience level the stop cropped up.
Even if a horse is schooled to a much greater degree of confidence and becomes much more reliable. The day is coming at a show (everything is hinkier at a show) when a moving shadow or the glare from the paint catches the horse’s eye – or the ride on the approach was a bit haphazard – and boom STOP. And then he stops for the rest of the day. As appears to have been his most recent show history.
And now it is an ongoing issue again. It can be that fragile for some horses.
This is also – for me – a giant red flag with this trainer. The trainer has been the owner and yet allowed a less competent rider to put a stop into a horse that the trainer intended to sell for multi-10’s of thousands to an ammy. That’s kinda - well, my guess is that the trainer cared more about the immediate income from the incompetent rider than the future profit from the horse. Wild speculation on my part, of course. But I’m wondering what is the real back story on this trainer + this horse.
If the European rider is following this horse’s journey in the U.S., they must be beyond frustrated that this trainer has ruined their excellent making of this horse.
Right - a steady stream of income work fixing show ring problems. Even fixing problems that are likely to start showing up at home.
I hate to say that this happens. But, this happens. It depends on the trainer, of course.
OP I am wondering if the trainer is rushing you into a purchase now. Whatever the reason given. Trainer wants to get this stoppy horse sold. While a human is in sight who likes the horse well enough to PPE.
IMO this is a great plan.
Have a cancellation clause in the lease – with written notice and no lead time required, you don’t get back money you’ve already paid, but you also don’t have to move forward any further with the purchase.
For your part, you have a chance to find out how reliable and how much you like the horse at shows before committing. Try before you buy. To a much greater extent than you are now. Plus the purchase price is nailed down at the beginning.
If you don’t get to show because horse is lame or some other adverse circumstance, consider extending the lease until you can. Or maybe cancel it and pick it up again later when (if) the horse is fully sound.
The trainer might be quite friendly to this. Even if you don’t purchase, perhaps you are helping the horse look better to the next prospective buyer. And the horse will have been earning something, or at least off her bill, for the time you are using him.
But – OP, for this to truly work for you and to get the trainer to agree, you have to have put your foot down (and make your mind up) that you are not buying him with any other arrangement. If trainer says ‘no’, purchase is off the table and you move on. Or just continue the care/lesson lease.
The message to both the trainer and yourself is that you definitely will not buy the horse without a good bit more time to assess where he is as a show horse, for you, whatever kind of rider you are / will be.
Also make sure whatever horse you buy is vetted by a referral veterinarian who will stand in court. I use a vet school. I would call the vet being suggested and ask about their policies, terms, and conditions. Ask whoever owns the horse for vet records and previous X-rays. At the moment he seems like more horse than you need.
Now I have questions about the vet you are taking the horse to for the PPE. Is this a vet recommended by your trainer (RED flag!) or one who has absolutely NO link to the trainer/owner or the horse previously? Is this a vet you have used previously?
Something tells me if she’s willing to do a care lease then this is not a horse that would fetch 50K on the open market.
I also think buying a super quirky horse that you’ve never really jumped a full course on and then immediately moving it to a different program is a truly terrible idea.
10 years old + gap in show record on top of previously bad show record + possible 1.0m max limit + history of stopping ≠ $50K on the open market.
OP is moving soon, and will take the horse w her. Because of his stop, my guess sees this person as “a bird in hand”, especially now the OP loves this horse.
Money is very personal and, as someone upthread said, they are worth what someone will pay for them. If OP loves the horse and can adjust the goals for said horse if he won’t jump at shows, maybe it’s ok. I do know people who have done just that.
I really do wonder about the ethics of the trainer though. As the trainer owns this horse, why would one lease a nice horse and watch someone make a train wreck out of it…UNLESS that person wasn’t in the trainer’s program.
My question is how does that change for you given his stoppy show record in the U.S.? That’s the horse as he is today.
He’s not going back to Europe. All that record means now – IMO – is that he can jump, not that he will now. Or do you feel that his Europe record outweighs his experience in the show ring in the U.S., so far?
No mention of where OP is located, that’s a big factor on if the $50k is reasonable or not. Cali or Wellington, maybe.
Your trainer owns the horse, yes? Then why did they have an amateur showing the horse poorly for such a long time? You also said the horse went as poorly even at home for that rider. Why did trainer continue that partnership for so long, then?? Seriously poor judgement. It’s one thing for a rider to be trying to learn how to ride better. It’s completely another for the non-compatible pair to keep going and going and going for a year or more, damaging both of their mental safety.
Has trainer never shown the horse?
Has trainer even ridden the horse since it was imported?
Something feels off here with this situation.
Anyway, the question of is the price right. I’d say not, personally. Too many unknowns. If horse had been shown successfully by anyone else since the mismatch ended, then maybe I’d say $50k is fair. But without any other inclination on how he may or may not be at shows for you, he’s really in the category of lesson horse, not show horse. $10-20k max, I’d think.
A horse with a stop can be retaught confidence. But it often takes a very long time.
If you’re okay staying at .80-1m indefinitely should that be the horse’s permanent restriction, with the possibility of never showing, then okay, offer your trainer what you are willing to pay for him. The worst they can say is no.
OP, I agree with the other posters this doesn’t sound like a great idea. Have you ever heard of “Black Stallion” syndrome? This is actually a rather specific syndrome, wherein a horse that is difficult, including with pros, “magically” seems to do much better with a less experienced rider. The less experienced rider thinks this is because she and the horse have a bond, and the horse has a special connection with her. However, the pro watches the horse and rider going around the ring as the inexperienced rider rides with a floppy rein, asking nothing of the horse, and naturally the horse doesn’t exhibit any of the problem behaviors when truly put under pressure or asked to really perform.
You say you are not ready to show, and some of your comment suggest you’re rather new to the horse world, but are at a show barn. But honestly there are plenty of very lower-level classes you could do with this horse. I’m a little suspicious that your trainer hasn’t encouraged you to try the horse out over some piddly little sticks in a show environment. (Or shown the horse herself, as others have noted.)
You are moving, and this makes things a great situation for your trainer, getting rid of a difficult horse, and passing the problem onto your new trainer.
Why buy someone else’s problem for $50K?
You’re also very critical of your riding ability in a way that suggests that your trainer has made you very unconfident of your ability. It’s okay to admit you’re inexperienced and ride at a certain level, but no need to put yourself down so much!
Everyone else has brought up great points for you to consider - but specifically focusing on pricing:
The horse is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Now the issue is that buying anything (car, boat, horse etc.) “off-market” can be very tricky because you don’t know what someone else would be willing to pay, and horses don’t come with a KBB value so it is entirely subjective.
I know you said other people have been interested in buying him, but unless they have shown up with 50k in hand I wouldn’t put too much stock in that as a metric of his value. They might be interested because they think they could get him for a steal given his history.
Are you actively horse shopping? Have you tried other horses in that price range? I think that would be the best way for you to determine if you want to buy this one. Maybe you try a handful of other horses in your price range and realize how much better this one is, or maybe you try some others and realize that you could get what you want without the history this horse has.
It sounds like you are moving soon and maybe feeling pressured to decide on this horse - if that is the case, I would pass.
Your trainer has a failed Grand Prix prospect that she likely paid a substantial sum of money to import. Horse is not even leasable for a fee because she couldn’t find a student that can get this horse around a ring at a show.
She now has a seemingly quite novice rider who the horse tolerates going through 2 foot six grids in a lesson format. This same novice rider is about to leave the community and seems to be willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money for her failure. This is a win-win for her. You help her recoup her loss and then you leave the community.
When the horse falls apart at a new barn or is unable to safely get around to show ring, she can blame that on the fact that you took the horse out of the program rather than her lack of transparency. Since you were already scheduling a pre-purchase exam you seem to be comfortable gambling this much money on a horse you may never be able to show or perhaps even ride in any environment other than the one it is currently in.
A horse that had true Grand Prix potential and now cannot get around a show ring likely has a pretty strong response when stressed out. Please make sure that you feel comfortable understanding how to recognize those signs and how to keep yourself safe.
If there was any chance that this horse could be competitive at any height, your trainer would’ve already gotten the horse out into the show ring.
Selling him quietly to you without advertising this horse is totally self motivated. If she was looking to give you this horse or sell it for a few thousand dollars it would be a different story. This asking price is completely misaligned the horse that has no evidence of being able to be a successful or even safe showhorse.
I think past post digging is rude but I genuinely hate seeing someone get fleeced. A YEAR ago you were jumping crossrails and afraid of messing up a schoolmaster. Your trainer was trying to make a commission off of you convincing you to import a horse. A year later you’re jumping small grids and about to leave and she’s telling you that you need her failed Grand Prix horse that is a demonstrated stopper?!?! She Does.Not.Have.Your.Best.Interest.In.Mind.
OP you can do better. We are here for you if you want to continue the discussion or have any questions.
My feelings about the stops are not from personal experience as none of my trainers would put an Ammy on one. They would not even have one in the barn for fear of damaging their reputation and they sure were not going to get on one, they all said never again. Happy to follow their lead. Any horse that started stopping got a full vet exam. No rider client was ever called incompetent or publicly blamed for causing it like this trainer blames her client for creating a stop yet let them continue displaying it over and over. Not logical. Suspect he might have had a stop in Europe leading to his export but never made it into a video and maybe trainer does not care to ride/train him. Which is logical. As is blaming OP publicly if he starts stopping with her, trainer is showing you who she is by blaming the other rider, you will be next.
Some of our best known riders have shared with me they will not get on them or put a client on one. When a rider whose poster once graced your tack room wall and calendar and who you paid money to watch jump around monster courses and watched in TV tells you never get on a known stopper? i would follow that advice.
And there were two of those riders.
That is a pretty common feeling so if OP buys him and he does not work out? Hard sell there, especially at 50k+.
Can OP seek the advice of the trainer she will be moving to when she relocates? Do not like this set up with OP moving and taking horse- and trainers problem- with her. Ask the new trainer first before bringing this one into her barn.
This deal has my BSometer pinging. At least get the new trainers opinion,
OP I feel for you for the overwhelmed feeling of this thread – it is a lot of info, and probably not what you were thinking would be offered. If you can be reassured that well-phrased but unfiltered info and advice comes from experienced COTH horse people, hopefully that helps you process your current situation.
