That was my point :yes: I thought more people might know about some of the Mongolian horsemanship … only because horse people are so friggin’ horsey that they usually end up at some point watching or reading about almost anything that has ever been done relative to horses. There have been some documentaries about the Mongolian race.
[QUOTE=2ndyrgal;3414257]
At least in Mongolia if a rider kills his horse at an event he is shunned. Here we just get them another one.[/QUOTE]
And I bet the Mongolians don’t blog about it and blame their horses either.
[QUOTE=JER;3414321]
And I bet the Mongolians don’t blog about it and blame their horses either.
:D[/QUOTE]
Really? Then I guess you didn’t see the PBS special about the special horse race they have in Mongolia where the children ride the horses. They carefully prepare them, then they ride them out about 15+ miles, then run them back as hard as they can flat out. Horse drops dead? Too bad. They have a backhoe handy to put them in a truck and take away the body. The big concern was the parents waiting for the kid and horse to come in at the end of the day. Oh… there they are, the kid sitting beside his dead horse. They are heartbroken, of course, if the favorite horse dies, but c’est la vie. Based on that, I’d have my doubts about the “level of horsemanship.” The horses are a necessity for their lives, but I guess they have so many that if the “race horse” dies, they can still cope.
If MES is in charge of the course design it will be a beautiful course. He is a fantastic designer and I’m scared of what will happen to the sport when he takes that hat off. 
Hopefully he’ll continue to teach on design and many will follow his style and practices.
It sounds as if you think the Chinese, themselves, will be designing the course and have something to prove. China, and Hong Kong for the equestrian events, are merely the hosts of the Games. The Olympic Committe provides the course designers.
Originally posted by Sandy M:
Based on that, I’d have my doubts about the “level of horsemanship.” The horses are a necessity for their lives
In many areas where horses are still a necessity usually they are well cared for. Not to be confused with lethal mistakes, “pampering” or a few “harsh boundaries”.
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3415422]
In many areas where horses are still a necessity usually they are well cared for. Not to be confused with lethal mistakes, “pampering” or a few “harsh boundaries”.[/QUOTE]
I’d say running a horse to death for a race (not necessity) is more than setting “harsh boundaries,” I’d say it’s going well past any “boundaries” and does not demonstrate good horsemanship. As pictured in the PBS program, there was not just one dead horse, but several - literally run to death. A very sad vision as the back hoe lifted and dumped many small, skinny horses into a truck.
While it is hard to judge from what was shown, in general, many of the horses looked not “fit” but unhealthily thin. One wonders what lesson is learned by children by having them run horses to death for the honor of their families. Life is harsh in Mongolia? I think they probably already knew that, and didn’t need to kill a horse to bring the lesson home.
Samatha Albert is the Jamaican rider you are referring to, I believe. She has a website about her Olympic quest:
http://samanthaalbert.com/index.php
I am guessing the ugly duckling jump will be part of the course:
Originally posted by Sandy M:
I’d say running a horse to death for a race (not necessity) is more than setting “harsh boundaries,” I’d say it’s going well past any “boundaries” and does not demonstrate good horsemanship. As pictured in the PBS program, there was not just one dead horse, but several - literally run to death. A very sad vision as the back hoe lifted and dumped many small, skinny horses into a truck.
While it is hard to judge from what was shown, in general, many of the horses looked not “fit” but unhealthily thin. One wonders what lesson is learned by children by having them run horses to death for the honor of their families. Life is harsh in Mongolia? I think they probably already knew that, and didn’t need to kill a horse to bring the lesson home.
The dead horse I call a “lethal mistake”.
In the documentary that I saw, there was only on dead horse in the race. The other horses all looked small, but not all that thin.
The “harsh boundaries” that I was thinking of came from the Southwestern Desert in the U.S.A. I would assume that there would be some similar thing with the Mongols.
If a horse took off when you were out in the desert wilderness with all of a rider’s tack and gear, it was considered exceptable to shoot the horse and keep the gear. This is wilderness riding. No helicopter rescue.
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3415589]
The dead horse I call a “lethal mistake”.
In the documentary that I saw, there was only on dead horse in the race. The other horses all looked small, but not all that thin.
The “harsh boundaries” that I was thinking of came from the Southwestern Desert in the U.S.A. I would assume that there would be some similar thing with the Mongols.
If a horse took off when you were out in the desert wilderness with all of a rider’s tack and gear, it was considered exceptable to shoot the horse and keep the gear. This is wilderness riding. No helicopter rescue.[/QUOTE]
I think we must have seen different programs. There were multiple deaths in the one I saw. You could see carcasses in the dump truck as multiple new ones were added. This was a yearly event. Run for many, many years. A very “big deal” but a “sporting” contest - not a “deliver the vaccine to Nome” life or death situation. One would think that if they were all such good horseman, either they would condition more properly (perhaps VAN the horses to the starting point - obviously they had trucks in which to put the DEAD horses), and race them back (15 miles)? Actually TROT part of the way?- thereby ‘saving’ your horse and probably winning as you passed the DEAD horses that were run full out the entire (or as far as they got) distance? Obviously, they sure didn’t hand out any “best condition” awards.
P.S. Grammer Nazi here: “acceptable” - not “exceptable” (unless you had some other meaning?)
Edited to ad: Just because of curiousity - how far were the “legs” the Pony Express horses ran? How many miles before they changed horses? Obviously they went all out, but you only read in stories or histories of the horses dying when shot by indians/robbers or when, for example, the relief station had been attacked and a horse had to go two legs, etc. Were the Pony Express horses/mustangs that much tougher than Mongolian ponies?
Each horse ran 12-15 miles:
Whereas the pony rider of 1860 rode a section of about 75 miles and changed horses every 12 to 15 miles, reenactment riders cover a shorter segment of 3 to 5 miles and use their own horses, turning the mochila over at the end of their ride to the next rider.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;3415912]
Each horse ran 12-15 miles:
Whereas the pony rider of 1860 rode a section of about 75 miles and changed horses every 12 to 15 miles, reenactment riders cover a shorter segment of 3 to 5 miles and use their own horses, turning the mochila over at the end of their ride to the next rider.
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/fulcrum/pony-exp.htm[/QUOTE]
Thanks, Ajierene.
So… if these Mongolian ponies were trucked to the starting point (and they DO have trucks at this race gathering site) and raced 15 miles back at a gallop, it would probably be a fair and reasonable test, but first they hack them out 15 miles, then race them back, flat out. Horses die. And this is culturally acceptable to honor the clan and prove you have the best horse, and we salute this as good horsemanship? Okaaaaaay
Originally posted by Sandy M:
I think we must have seen different programs. There were multiple deaths in the one I saw. You could see carcasses in the dump truck as multiple new ones were added.
No, that sounds horrible.
No, the documentary that I saw had no trucks involved at all. This would have been further into the steppes.
My cousin saw one documentary on the Mongolian racing recently and she didn’t like it at all. Sounded very diffent than what I saw.
Also, Pony Express … yeah Arjierne has it right.
But it wasn’t that uncommon to ride a seventy-five mile day without damaging a horse. Tombstone to Tucson. Dick Abernathy.
I always seem to mix acceptable with exceptable. I know the difference, I just never get it right. No problem, thanks for correcting a bad habit.
I am guessing that the brutal race is probably some bastardization of an older tradition.
It varies within districts (or whatever vast spaces have in terms of division on a nomadic plain) I would think.
I would like to point out to the “grammer nazi” that “grammar” is spelled with an “a.”
–The spelling nazi
Originally posted by Sandy M:
Were the Pony Express horses/mustangs that much tougher than Mongolian ponies?
From film some of the Mongolian horses look like desert Arab horses. Some Mustangs look like desert Arab horses. They probaly aren’t that far apart in genetic origin. They just got moved around the continent via clipper ships and such.
[QUOTE=Zippy;3416334]
I would like to point out to the “grammer nazi” that “grammar” is spelled with an “a.”
–The spelling nazi[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely right: Perhaps I was confused with Kelsey Grammer(ar). ROFLOL. Still, the misspelling doesn’t really affect the meaning - but Exceptable and Acceptable are quite different.
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3416297]
No, that sounds horrible.
No, the documentary that I saw had no trucks involved at all. This would have been further into the steppes.
My cousin saw one documentary on the Mongolian racing recently and she didn’t like it at all. Sounded very diffent than what I saw.
Also, Pony Express … yeah Arjierne has it right.
But it wasn’t that uncommon to ride a seventy-five mile day without damaging a horse. Tombstone to Tucson. Dick Abernathy.
I always seem to mix acceptable with exceptable. I know the difference, I just never get it right. No problem, thanks for correcting a bad habit.[/QUOTE]
Obviously a different program then. What bothered me most about the one I saw was that the documentarian(s)(?) made absolutely NO comment about the brutality of racing the horses flat out and the horses dying. Just how “sad” the riders/families were to lose the horse. WTF? I wouldn’t have minded quite as much if they had commented about cultural differences making this somehow acceptable (though WE might deplore it), but it was just, “well, that’s what happened and the kids are heartbroken.” Well, geesh, maybe if they didn’t whip 'em to run flat out all the way, it wouldn’t happen.
Riding a 75 mile day - well, obviously that can be done. Look at the Tevis - usually 100 mi. over rough country in about 13+/- hours. But not at a dead gallop all the way!
The program you saw was totalaly different than what I saw. I wouldn’t even like it based on a cultural difference.
It would be hard to believe that that would have been the original norm. The Mongols live off of their horses. They make all kinds of things from the milk of mares - cheese food and alcoholic drink (scared to imagine what that tastes like).
I do know the culture has been suffering from rapid change due to the opening of the steppes to the outside world. Also is suffering from some kind of issue with the rest of the changes in Russia, etc…
[QUOTE=KBG Eventer;3413716]
The equestrian part of the Olympics is in Hong Kong :).[/QUOTE]
Boy, is this a misguided attempt at reassurance. Remember, everybody, that even though certain events will be held in HK because Beijing didn’t have a PRAYER of building horse facilities in time for the Olympics, these are still the BEIJING Olympics, organized and run by the Chinese Communist Party that is based in Beijing and provided the instructions for preparation. The events being held in Beijing itself will be a disaster due to hasty, shoddy preparation and horrendous air quality. The events being staged in HK too will have problems because the SAME PEOPLE are calling the shots as in Beijing. Don’t think for a moment that the HK events won’t be f’d up by the Chinese just because they’re held among glitzy modern highrises in a relatively rich city known for cheap electronics. Woe unto the horses being sent to compete in these Games.
As for the XC itself, besides the vengeful motives an earlier posted attributed to the Chinese (make the course too hard for the usual nations to excel), we should worry more about sheer incompetence of the Chinese. They have no background in horse facilities. Even if a premier international course designer from a western nation DESIGNED the course, it’s Chinese people on the ground carrying out the BUILDING of the course under instruction of their Chinese government, and you’d better believe there will be unsafe conditions out there – anything from nails laying around to splinters sticking out where horses will run into them, to unsafe water jumps, to footing that collapses/crumbles dangerously . . . . . use your imagination. Or your horse to go test it out. Poor horses.
