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Conditioning the pleasure trail horse

Endurance and Trail Riding
#21

In response

matryoshka,
No, I am not the first person to bring abuse into the thread.
And Yes, I completely agree with you that people who wish to ride only on the weekend are not as you say “weekend Warriors”.
No, I am not labeling anyone…quite the opposite, as my posts more than make clear.

Hey, I didn’t point out anyone’s post and slam on them for their opinions, but you did. As I said….flame away.

And yes, I agree with you on levels of conditioning should be reflected in the amount of use owners expect from their equine friend…but I add…this really depends on the breed of horse, age of horse, conformation of horse, and health of horse.

· Many people own horses that no matter the amount of conditioning will ever be able to do trail because of breed.

· Many horses will not be able to do trail regardless of conditioning because of age.

· Many horses will not be able to do trail regardless of conditioning because of poor conformation

· And many horses will not be able to do trail regardless of conditioning because of poor health… I.E. never wormed correctly, poor food, poor living conditions, past injuries, and many many more.

· And lastly, people own animals as they feel fit. Owners are allowed to be stupid and make their own priorities of what they feel in important. We all can’t be expected to have the same sense. I too become peeved at people’s ignorance of what is a “good horseperson” and what is not…But add – there has to be a line between what is factual and what is assumed.

Note. I use the word many and not all….this is because I understand that generalizations don’t fit every situation. I find many people loose site of this. Did I single you out? Or was I responding to the flavor of this thread? It is not hard to see what this thread was pointing to.

So, please don’t feel I am slamming against you in particular or anyone else. I responded as I said…to the flavor the thread was going. I voice my opinion as anyone else is allowed to do…it is a public forum…and open to all.

#22

Regarding breed specifics and trail riding, I will feel more comfortable if we have empirically validated evidences in front of us. For example, some breeds are not suitable for trail like - drafts as per one person’s claim…However, drafts were also known to carry knights out into battles - they’ve got to carry really heavy load for quite distance before they go into battles. HOWEVER, I do need to see more evidences that this was widely observed in the past. This breed can do this or that…without any supporting documents is something I need to consider.

I am not at all interested in flaming away. I am much more interested in learning and sharing what we learn.

#23

Hmmm, I have pretty much seen all breeds doing all disciplines at one point or another. There are plenty of drafts and draft crosses foxhunting so I don’t know why they wouldn’t also do trails, the only qualifier being that a big draft wouldn’t fit on some of the skinny mountain trails I sometimes traverse (in fact my oldenburg/qh cross is a tight fit on some of them). To me, personal preference of the rider is a bigger factor- I tend to prefer quarter horses and tbs but on the trails, many of my buddies prefer the gaited horses, and a ride on a Paso Fino is very pleasant!

As for ‘abuse’ or bad horsemanship, that’s a whole 'nother interesting discussion. I spend much of my time holding my tongue- when I see a horse with the bridle improperly adjusted/ bit hanging too low (frequent occurrence in these parts) I don’t feel I can ‘volunteer’ my advice unless asked. I did speak up once at a judged trail ride when a teenager was getting after her horse for what she perceived was disobedience. The horse wouldn’t side pass because she wasn’t giving it the correct aids, in fact the horse was doing exactly what was being asked of it by her leg aids, but she was whaling on it anyway. After observing this for ten minutes I waltzed over and suggested she get off her horse, take it home, cool off, and do some schooling another day-the result was a stream of cusswords but when I threatened to call the animal control folks on her then and there she did disappear mumbling something about how her Mom was a trainer and “I” couldn’t talk to her that way! (Funny thing, I invited her to go get Mom and bring her over for a chat and that didn’t happen).

I guess I would say, trying to keep it as short as possible, that abuse or bad horsemanship are certainly not the exclusive domain of ‘weekend warriors,’ or novice owners. One sees it everywhere, even at the top levels of competition. I’m not saying one sees it ‘frequently’ at top levels, but one does see it, and zero abuse of animals is my overambitious goal.

I can recall a long-ago project horse that took us two plus years to reschool to a safe and sane show hunter…AFTER he had been AHSA Working Hunter of the Year (trained and shown exclusively on the needle). On the other hand, I can tell just from perusing the various fora here that what some consider to be abuse, I do not, so I can assume the opposite also applies. No easy answers!

#24

Gee RTM, I didn’t mean to flame you, sorry. :no: I just didn’t see this thread as being very negative, so your post surprised me.

I disagree with you on a number of points, but I disagree with lots of people and don’t think I’m right every time. That is the beauty of discussion–learning new things from other people. You bring up points I hadn’t really thought about.

What breeds can’t ride the trail? I always thought of it more as a temperament limitation than a breed limitation. Some horses are unsafe on the trail because of their temperaments. I’ve never thought of a horse having a physical limitation to take on the trail. There are enough trails out there for just about any level of abiity, from easy to challenging. I’ve a friend who trail rides her aged draft horse. I also led a whole group of Blue Roan Belgian trail riders on a ride-a-thon last year–they were a blast. I’ve never enjoyed a group trail ride more. If you are talking about unsound horses, they shouldn’t be ridden at all, depending on the unsoundness.

Maybe not every breed is cut out for competetive trail, endurance, or judged trail. My OTTB does not have great manners unless he is moving forward. He’d be a nightmare at a CTR or judged ride. Wait his turn with the rider mounted? Yeah right! So I wouldn’t put him in that position until I thought he could do it without hurting somebody. I may try him endurance, but I’m the limitation there. I don’t know if I have the stamina for it. I also don’t care much about winning–the participation would be the fun part.

Again, sorry I offended you. I didn’t mean to. I was just wondering at the negative tone–but perhaps I misunderstood your intent.

#25

More thoughts on breeds

OK, I must admit I am an endurance rider and used to working trail at a relative speed. I set that aside when I say this and think only of trail riding for fun, and social reasons.

I have found that many persons that I have ridden with who chose to ride heavier bred horses can not even do a trot for more than 10 mins in a hour. Not to slam stay with me here…I don’t really consider that trail riding. I have gone on my share of “toddy” rides, the ones that start and end with a drink in hand and do not go over a walk…if that is considered trail riding …then my bad.

When I speak of doing trail I make the assumption of doing at least a trot and canter half the time I would do a walk and or several hours in the saddle with several miles covered. Sure endurance is another factor, so I am not going to apply that to everyone. But honestly, don’t you feel moving the horse along in gait is expected when working a trail? If not, I am not saying you are not riding your horse; please don’t think that…I am saying it really doesn’t constitute “Working a trail”. Please no one take offense.

Then let me add, if you are only going to walk the trail…why would you really need to condition your horse to do it? I am speaking to people that would like to work a trail, see some pretty nice scenery, cover some ground, and spend the day. To do this, you would need to be in the saddle a few hours and know how to ride and have a horse that can do it without have difficulty.

With that being said, I find most heavier breeds can not do this. Sure they can walk the trail, and have fun doing it…they just can’t keep a good pace that is all. Then add 4+ hours in the saddle and these horses are shot. I am not saying the Arab is best…but given the same amount of work, my Arab is just getting started. So, in complete light of doing trail with an animal that can do it with ease…again, certain breeds can and do it better.

With the conversation of drafts doing trail…sure they can do it. But again…not like many other breeds. Yes, armored men used them as no other horse could carry them, but these men could only cover 10 or so miles a day on average – hardly a pace to get you anywhere. They had no choice, what other animal could carry the weight.

When someone asks for a breed that can succeed on trail, I wouldn’t say every breed - no! I would only state ones that would excel at the trail. Which ends me with…if you buy a horse to compete of perform at a certain function…wouldn’t you buy the one that does it best? Is it a crime to say what ones are better and to point out those that wouldn’t?

Again, I only make generalizations…because the heart of every horse is different, and many can succeed where they love to be.

#26

I think that it does depend, like someone said, one the “level” of “trail-riding” one does with that horse. Like RTM, I am an Endurance rider as well, but I have also ridden “bigger” breeds in addition to my Arabs, and can see both sides easily.
For instance, muscling and structure on different breeds vary greatly and affect their ability to do such things.
Take for example, my Grand Prix Dutch Warmblood, he is in extreme top shape, excellent condition, etc. ( worked on the trails( hills, fields, varying terrian-what I condition my endurance Arabs on- ) 2x a week, worked in arena 4x, lounged occasionally, long-lined occasionally, etc. ), excellent muscling. Then, take for example, my Endurance Arabians. They too, are well-muscled, top shape, excellent conditioning, conditioned 15-20+ miles daily, varying work, a bit of Dressage cross-training, etc. Both types of breeds are conditioned to their peak, and yet, I would not ask my DWB to do a 100 miler Endurance ride. Why, because of his structure and variance in the muscling. His HR would not drop quickly enough, and while, yes, he would be able to negociate the hills and terrian easily enough without getting “tired” or “winded”, his muscling structure is not built for 100 mile Endurance rides. The same applies to my Arabians. I would not ask them to show FEI and Grand Prix Dressage tests. While yes, they are conditioned and in top shape, and yes, could do some of the lower-level movements, no, they do not have the muscular structure to do so. Stay with me for a few longer, this is the point,…It is not a breed thing, however, ( I stress this immensely ) it is an individual thing- the horse him/herself- and their structure. This also will lead to the muscular structure, which I wont go into right now, but simply long strand and short strand muscular fibers, which differ in purpose and size, affecting the horse’s performance.

#27

The OP was referring to pleasure trail riders and their horses. She thought that these horses should be well conditioned, even if they are just to walk. I agreed with her on that point because, if nothing else, a horse’s back needs to be conditioned to carry a rider for any length of time. It was also noted that proper conditioning helps prevent injury.

Pleasure is in the heart of the rider. I enjoy walk-only trail rides. I never used to think of walk-only to be enjoyable. Now that I’m 41 and have restarted a number of OTTBs on the trail, I realize the value of just walking. Over the years I’ve helped a number of ring riders learn to enjoy the trail. Many were afraid to go faster than a walk out in the open–some were overconfident and found their skills weren’t quite as good as they thought. So, we focus on trail safety, steering with the leg, balancing over obstacles, earning a horse’s trust, and just enjoying the scenery. I familiarize them with how to handle spooks and all sorts of things that rarely happen in an arena. We don’t move up to trot and canter until the rider (or if I’m on a very green horse–I) feel comfortable.

Draft horses are especially good for giving timid riders confidence. Few things bother a good, well-trained draft horse. They are solid and usually calm (I had a Percheron who was the exact opposite of this, though).

I agree with you about not all breeds being suitable for trail fitness and race competition. I’ve never been on a judged trail ride, but unless they have to squeeze someplace they can’t fit, drafts should do all right. Much better than my super fit, super emotional OTTB who seems to miss the race track and can’t stand still without bucking.

It is wonderful that the trails offer something for all of us. We can enjoy competing our favorite breeds without having an expectation to win. Or we can go with a breed that we enjoy and trust and trail ride to spend time enjoying them and scenery. I love to see fancy show horses hit the trail for a few fun-filled hours. I had a half-Arab mare that did everything from saddle seat, Western, and hunter to competetive trail. Of all the things we did, I enjoyed the CTR the most. That was about 20 years ago, though.

#28

Nice points

Matr, I really liked your last paragraph; I think that the trails hold something for all levels, whether you are a walking trail rider who simply wants to be out for the scenery, or a dead-on dedicated Endurance rider out for the ultimate trail experience, we all can find “our place” there. Like I mentioned, there are varying “levels” of trails and “levels” of places for varying horses.

#29

I’m not sure what breed has to do with the original point? the original point was about folks who don’t make any effort to condition their horse, and then every now and again decide to go for a multi-hour walk on trails. Even an arab might feel a bit sore after standing around in a pasture for three months, then being asked to walk for six hours.

#30

I think there is some confusion here perhaps? I’m sensing that some of us are using the word “trail” to mean a leisurely stroll through a scenic park. Others are thinking of high speed, challenging terrain jaunts. And others are automatically thinking of Competitive Trail and/or Endurance as “trail”.

I do trail on my large full-draft horse, where “trail” does not mean high speed but it might mean many hours in the saddle. I don’t think any horse should be excluded from trail work as long as he/she is sound for riding. The key is limiting how hard that trail ride will be.

Maybe the problem here isn’t the choice of breed or the exact number of hours of a ride… maybe the problem is the lack of awareness riders may have of the current fitness/energy levels of their horse throughout a ride. If people were better able to tell when their horse is feeling exhausted, they’d not be pushing their horse so much. So perhaps it just comes down to rider education.

#31

Yes… even if it’s endurance; judged trail; other competitive or pleasure, I agree.

So far as trotting on the trail … One thing that I have found helpful is that if the rider and horse are capable of a slow - even a posting trot, in the arena or dressage court, then sometimes the trot is beneficial on the trail to avoid the spook. When I know of an area on the trail that’s a little bit worrisome (there is one trail where we ride under a 2 lane road. The overpass is very wide and concrete and the noise under it with cars going 60 mph overhead can be a little unnerving to some horses and some riders!!)… I have the rider put their horse into a working trot (Western or English) to make the horse and the rider focus on their gait… it also puts the horse into a controlled forward motion to get past the worrisome item. : ) The other time it is to move towards a moving object that they might feel threatened by… chasing a dog - at the trot- instead of running from it; chasing a car instead of turning from it, etc. I know it’s all in what the horse/rider is comfortable, but hopefully, this entices someone else to give it a try. Trotting on the trail - doing up and down transitions to and from a walk, is helpful in conditioning and focus. But a nice forward walk, watching the scenary is pleasant too.

#32

I think trail riding gives a rider a more solid seat, too. I’ve seen ring riders improve tremendously after a few sessions on the trail. I haven’t tried to trot up to or past objects that spook my horse. I usually maintain the same gait (or slow to a trot if we are cantering), look where I want to go, and ignore the scary object. Sometimes the horse gets so upset that I have to use a different tactic. I wonder if it is helpful to the rider to trot up to or past a spooky object? If the rider is more confident, so will the horse be, too. Thanks for the suggestion!

#33

Spooking and speed

It’s true that sometimes moving at a faster speed reduces the zag in the horse’s route of march…the risk is that the faster they are going, the bigger the zag, if it occurs, which could at times be a concern.

All of my Pony Express two mile legs on Saturday featured items that the ol’ hoss questioned…from antelope to manhole covers to car dealerships festooned with balloons. On the first leg in the middle of nowhere I didn’t have much need to worry about the zags, except for the one car going the other way at highish speed. In the urban and downtown areas, had to make sure we didn’t cross the double yellow line on the one hand, on the other hand, had to make sure we stayed between the escort vehicles in the right hand lane even though the horse reallllly thought the next lane to the left would be preferable, farther away from all those car dealer balloons! However, as traffic was whizzing past in that lane, the left leg stayed in touch to remind hoss that that wasn’t an option;). He trotted and cantered nicely with that little reminder (then the only issue was stopping for red lights!).

At any speed, I’ve discovered over the years that yes, first of all, NOT looking at the scary object(s) is essential. Looking straight ahead does work in many cases, but for really scary things in tight spots, what has never failed to work for me is looking down, on the opposite side of the scary object, on the ground just about where you want that foreleg to land next. Dunno why it works, but it does, keeps them from shying into a road full of traffic, for example.

#34

I noticed that some were commenting on the suitability of various breeds. Any breed is perfectly capable of trails for pleasure, IMO. The are certain advantages and disadvantages, however. Ride a draft, and catch a lot of tree in your face, but no problem barreling thru heavy brush or stepping over good size obstacles. Ride a pony, miss the face wiping, but may need to find a way around if he’s not a jumper. Conditioning needs depend on your definition of pleasure riding. I’m done in maybe 2 hours, that needs not much more than for the horse to be sound. Climb hills all weekend, another matter. How much weight is involved? That makes a difference.

#35

Chiming in here… I think ArabianDreams had a good point about breeds and body types, etc. You don’t see heavily-built football-player types winning the NY marathon or a bike race… their bodies are not designed for that. However, they are in high physicial condition, too. Maybe a few of these big-bodied types COULD do well in a marathon/bike race (compares to an endurance ride for a horse), but to generalize with body structure and athletic ability, long and lean is for endurance where stocky and strong is for bursts of high power strength. I ride a draft cross who seems like he could trot forever on the trail (if I was conditioned enough myself to last that long!!!), but a light horse in the same state of conditioning could outlast him, I bet. It’s a matter of moving that mass along for an extended period of time - it simply takes more effort! (PS, I’m a mostly “walk” trailrider myself., with the occasional trot and canter.)

#36

the spooks

When trail riding, your horse should follow your lead the same as any other discipline. The direction you place your body is the direction the horse is being told you wish to go. Another reason hard trail riding with an accomplished trail horse can be executed correctly. The more you work with your horse at faster speeds; it forces you to have the correct balance. Much like jumpers, dressage, & the like.

Horses that have teamed-up with their riders are always on “queue” for any change. When the rider changes shoulder alignment & head, so should the horse understand you wish for it to “come back in-line” with you.

I say this in regard to the comments about spooky horses. If possible, the rider should maintain the same speed, but hold firm arms and inform your horse “you are on to him” and realize he is being stress. Make corrections immediately, and never look or face yourself at the object. Continue forward like you would if it wasn’t there. Praise your horse for his efforts if he is trying. Give negative enforcement if your horse is “making an excuse” and acting stupid for the hell of it.

If you have the time, and are riding the same area frequently, you might want to “end the argument” so you may ride the trail clear at some point. I find it is good to stop within their comfort zone and stand. Make them stand completely still (they should understand you are speaking with them and not their right to act stupid). Then move forward some and repeat. This works well with young horses, and horses that like excuses to act-up.

Just my learning.

If you want to train a horse well on trail - try doing this before the trail forks. You will surprised at what they do. With a little positive reinforcement at their correct reactions, you are on a great start to having a good trail horse.

#37

My version of trail riding is usually behind a cow. Sometimes at speed and at times a 20 mile mosey. If a healthy horse can’t do a 20 mile mosey, then they are a sorry excuse for a horse. I guess you could say I cross train my ponies (welsh x QH) with driving and cowboy play. I would add that I am a lard a$$ and these little ponies haul me fine. Are they in shape? It depends. In April and May they are as hard as ponies can be. Right now they are soft as they have only been used an hour or two a week for a couple of months. I have no problem pulling them out of the pasture and doing 80 miles over 3 days in the mountains. One with a pack and the other packing me. When we get home and I turn them loose they usually roll and then do a buck and snort to the bottom of the field and back. If they were really abused, they wouldn’t be that anxious to play.

The problem a lot horse owners seem to think their horses did somthing wrong and put them in jail (a stall) for hours on end.

But what do I know, I am just a weekend worrior that abuses ponies. :winkgrin:

#38

What a hoot!

Lost Farmer…You are refreshing!

Ha

#39

RTMAnglo, I second your suggestion about spooks. That’s pretty much what I do. I seem to perpetually be on green horses, though, so we don’t always get to the level of communication you describe. I’m keeping my OTTB (Butch) and plan to ride him into old age (for both of us), so we’ll be at that point in a few more miles. :wink: He’s quite emotional, so it may take a while to get through to him. The general advice I’ve gotten from endurance riders is to keep going with him until he realizes there is always another mile of trail and galloping/acting emotional won’t get him anywhere but more tired. The problem is that he’s fitter than I am.

He only really spooks at running water–a reeking garbage truck could lumber down the trail (or an ambulance with its siren blaring) and he wouldn’t batt an eye, but ask him to walk next to a large creek? What? He seems sure it will overrun its banks any minute and drown him, I guess. Either that or he thinks there is an alligator in it. I guess I need a horse psychic to ask him what scares him about running water. :smiley:

There were quite a few Anglos at the OD ride last weekend. As a scribe, I would try to guess the breed (in my head) and then politely ask the rider the breeding of the horse. Most of the ones got checked through my vet had at least some degree of Arabian blood. There were a few Morgans, a couple of QH, and a few TWH, too.

#40

LostFarmer, my horse would consider it abuse to make him follow a cow. I don’t think he’s ever seen one. :wink:

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