Here’s some info about Miles City racing. http://m.billingsgazette.com/sports/more/short-horse-racing-season-begins-sunday-in-miles-city/article_ddbfc1b3-1a96-5658-bb8c-b44e5ada2050.html?mobile_touch=true
Sorry for the short posts but I’m on my phone 
You know what? I give up. The horse is obviously in exemplary living conditions and should definitely be raced until she can’t race anymore. And then she should definitely be bred. Because if there is one thing that’s clear, it is that this owner who thought a bit was going to magically transform a racehorse into a pleasure horse is the kind of person who should absolutely breed this mare. And I am also sure that this jockey/trainer who happened to be passing the owner’s field and decided to ask if he could race the horse is going to be this horse’s saving grace. It’s a public service, really.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go look for a jockey for my OTTB. He has suffered far too long doing flatwork and light jumping with me, and it is high time we get him back into racing at some low end tracks. After all, these horses love to run, don’t ya know? I can’t wait to see how happy he is going to be when he finds out!
[QUOTE=FineAlready;7001549]
You know what? I give up. The horse is obviously in exemplary living conditions and should definitely be raced until she can’t race anymore. And then she should definitely be bred. Because if there is one thing that’s clear, it is that this owner who thought a bit was going to magically transform a racehorse into a pleasure horse is the kind of person who should absolutely breed this mare. And I am also sure that this jockey/trainer who happened to be passing the owner’s field and decided to ask if he could race the horse is going to be this horse’s saving grace. It’s a public service, really.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go look for a jockey for my OTTB. He has suffered far too long doing flatwork and light jumping with me, and it is high time we get him back into racing at some low end tracks. After all, these horses love to run, don’t ya know? I can’t wait to see how happy he is going to be when he finds out![/QUOTE]
Yes, it just is not worth it. Yes, my poor OTTB is suffering too from lack of racetrack training, I guess I should send him to the bush track 3 hours away where one horse died coming home because the horses trainer did not think that hauling for a 3 hour drive immediately after a race would be a problem for a horse. They are so knowledgeable at those bush tracks, clearly all capable of running a fine training problem that puts the horse first…
Because no horse ever died at a hunter competition.
rolleyes
Honestly, your horses have no concept of “rather”, so you can’t ask them. The concept of “hard work” is often really irrelevant to a thoroughbred, they usually thrive on the structure and the work at the track. That’s why it can be a difficult transition, to a lack of discipline, structure and work.
I took care of one who transitioned to jumpers who, despite being nerved after his retirement from jumpers due to navicular, who would freak out without exercise and when he saw the trailer leave. He hated not being in work and died shortly after they stopped riding him completely and attempted to “retire” him. That attitude hasn’t been atypical of the TB’s I’ve worked with - but I’ve never taken a failed one off the track, just successful ones.
The melodrama is killing me in this thread.
No I did better than that- I gave you the raw data. Haven’t you ever read a chart? If one of those horses went down, it would be noted and you can tally to your hearts content.
But I get the sense it doesn’t matter in the end.
[QUOTE=FineAlready;7001493]
What you provided is not statistics on bush track breakdowns. Additionally, you do know that there are many bush tracks that are not even operated legally and have no statistics available at all? Miles City actually does sound like it is a step up from a “typical” bush track. Google Louisiana bush track racing. Watch some YouTube videos. Then tell me if you think there are a lot of statistics out there regarding those “tracks.”
And the fact that this horse is in Montana does not impact how I feel about the situation one way or another. The horse could be in Illinois and I would feel the same way.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pronzini;7001699]
No I did better than that- I gave you the raw data. Haven’t you ever read a chart? If one of those horses went down, it would be noted and you can tally to your hearts content.
But I get the sense it doesn’t matter in the end.[/QUOTE]
Are you really so stupid that you believe that statistics from ONE day of racing at ONE lower end track is the equivalent of breakdown statistics for bush tracks generally? So, since no horses went down at Miles City on May 25, 2013, horses that are raced at crappy tracks don’t go down at a higher rate than those raced at higher end tracks?
I was wondering about breakdown statistics at bush tracks/lower end racetracks generally, and that is not going to be something that anyone can find. Many bush tracks do not even keep race times, much less death/breakdown statistics.
[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7001672]
Honestly, your horses have no concept of “rather”, so you can’t ask them. [/QUOTE]
I disagree with you on this. You even disagree with yourself, because in the next breath, you go on to talk about a horse that would “freak out” without exericse and when the trailer left. That horse clearly had some kind of preference for something.
My current horse has all sorts of preferences, which he makes readily known. And if you think that horses not on the track lack structure, you clearly have not spent enough time in barns that train horses for other disciplines. My horse has a strict 5-6 day/week work schedule, is worked at approximately the same time daily, is turned out at the same time every day, etc. He is one of the most heavily-managed horses I have ever had, because that is how he does best.
And if you really think that show hunters die at competitions at a higher rate than horses die on bush tracks…I just don’t even know what to tell you.
You know when there’s a band that has some good songs on the radio and they’re kind of a “thing” and everyone knows their songs and they do a couple of big tours…and then 5 years later you’re shocked to see them drugged-out and broke and playing Joe’s Chicken Shack for tips?
That’s this.
Wow, this thread took a surprising turn. I’d stopped reading before OP popped back in.
For me it breaks my heart because it’s just another person racing horses who doesn’t have a clue. I know a fair amount about TB’s and OTTB’s and what I don’t know, I can find out from people I know who know a LOT more than me…but I would never, ever, take a horse to any track. Nor would I let some gypsies who knocked on my door, take one of mine to a track.
A few years ago I took in a horse named Carson City Kid, who’d run his 120th race at some bush track near Fargo ND. When the hauler delivered him to me he dropped his bale of hay and said, “Here’s his hay, but I wouldn’t give it to him!” The poor horse was in a field with dairy cows, had been claimed by a dairy farmer who always wanted a racehorse. That horse was so damned tired. It’s just not right.
I didn’t say at a higher rate. I was responding to Stolen Virtue’s OMG a horse died comment.
I’m not contradicting myself at all, though I see how you could misconstrue what I said. They have preferences about what they are doing right now, yes, but they do not care about tomorrow.
Is that clearer?
What that means is that they are not running thinking “oh dear god this is so awful I could die tomorrow”.
Philosophically, I don’t believe that dying, for horse or for man, is the worst thing that could happen. Which is why I support humane euthanasia, even when a horse is healthy, rather than go to an “unknown” situation. I suppose you don’t?
I would also like to state, before there is any further confusion, that I do believe that there are bad tracks and bad owners, but I do NOT believe that is the case here. You seem convinced that because the horse went back to the track she is doooomed.
What you’re not talking into account is the very real possibility that the mare will race a few races, and retire as a broodie. By the fact that the owner took her from a bad situation, I’m gonna guess that the owner is a good person who cares about the mare.
Honestly, if I were a racehorse trainer I would be way more afraid of pleasure homes. There is zero oversight when the horse goes “off track”. I’d imagine that they have to cross their fingers a lot at night and pray for the best.
OP, (I hope you are still following) to get away from the other discussions going on - There’s another thread on CoTH about the vaqueros and their training methods, etc. so while I was looking around about that, I found Anderson’s site. It’s a nice, interesting little site.
http://cowboyhistory.wordpress.com/
A Thoroughbred horse is a horse. And with time and patience can be trained to do what you want. In the below link, an off track gelding has been turned into a very nice horse used for demonstrations of historic vaquero horsemanship in the southwest.
http://cowboyhistory.wordpress.com/im-concho/
All things aside, you probably have a very nice horse on your hands. If I were you, I’d give her some time and training. If you take the time to teach her to do what you need her to do, I expect she’ll be fine. After all, right now she only knows how to do one thing; she’s only had one job her whole life. Every horse has to be trained to do (…) If you aren’t able to do the training, find someone in your area who can.
I have a ASB who knew nothing but high-trotting around in circles when I got her. She didn’t know what grass was, and didn’t know what the automatic waterer was. I actually picked grass up in my hand and fed it to her, after two days of her just looking at it. I saw the light of “Dang! This stuff is GOOD!” come into her eyes and now grass is the big deal she always wants!
A car going by her stall in the Mare Motel, or someone going in to clean her stall would send her shivering. I’ve had her 6 months now and she is turning into a pocket pony. Cars? Nah. Raking while I’m in there with you? No Problemo! Can you scratch me there while your at it? I’ll follow you around till you do!
We’re still working on some things, but I will send her to the trainer next month for what has been termed “Boot Camp” and go from there.
Via con Dios.
…but I would never, ever, take a horse to any track.
So you believe that racing is inherently bad.
Which is fine, but it is NOT a belief that all of us share.
So again, anecdotal evidence from one horse who had crappy hay.
As long as we’re going there - I picked up a pleasure horse from an owner who had burdock in her tail from dock to the bottom, was eating moldy cow hay, and had untreated wounds on her patterns. Guess I should say that all pleasure homes are bad and it just isn’t right.
I’d never say that, because it isn’t the case.
I had a TB who raced as a claimer (before I got him). The trainer loved him. Fed him well and took care of him. I saw nothing inherently abusive in his environment. Do bad eggs exist? Yes. They exist in every discipline.
Is racing dangerous? Yes. Is it very dangerous? Yes. No one is debating that fact.
I just don’t think it is inherently cruel to an animal to participate in it.
[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7001806]
I didn’t say at a higher rate. I was responding to Stolen Virtue’s OMG a horse died comment.
I’m not contradicting myself at all, though I see how you could misconstrue what I said. They have preferences about what they are doing right now, yes, but they do not care about tomorrow.
Is that clearer?
What that means is that they are not running thinking “oh dear god this is so awful I could die tomorrow”.
Philosophically, I don’t believe that dying, for horse or for man, is the worst thing that could happen. Which is why I support humane euthanasia, even when a horse is healthy, rather than go to an “unknown” situation. I suppose you don’t?
I would also like to state, before there is any further confusion, that I do believe that there are bad tracks and bad owners, but I do NOT believe that is the case here. You seem convinced that because the horse went back to the track she is doooomed.
What you’re not talking into account is the very real possibility that the mare will race a few races, and retire as a broodie. By the fact that the owner took her from a bad situation, I’m gonna guess that the owner is a good person who cares about the mare.
Honestly, if I were a racehorse trainer I would be way more afraid of pleasure homes. There is zero oversight when the horse goes “off track”. I’d imagine that they have to cross their fingers a lot at night and pray for the best.[/QUOTE]
I don’t actually think we are as philosophically different as you seem to think. I agree that horses live in the moment. I support humane euthanasia, depending on the circumstances. I’m not sure how you could think that this owner is an appropriate racehorse owner given her posts here? And I’m also not sure why you think this owner took the mare from a “bad situation”? The horse last raced at Prairie Meadows, which is the last track my horse raced at. It’s not a bad track. Looking at the horse’s race history, she was pretty well run out, not performing well, etc. I’m sure her prior owners could have raced her at a lower level or sold her to slaughter if they really didn’t give a damn, but instead they sold her to the OP as a pleasure horse, and the OP turned around and started racing the mare at a low end track. You realize Miles City also does “wild horse” races? That’s not exactly the mark of a quality place where the track and the people around are taking the horses’ best interests into account…
OneGrayPony, as a further point of clarification (I’ve said this already, but it bears repeating): I do not think racing is inherently bad or the worst possible thing a horse can be doing. I do not think horses that raced in claims races are all treated poorly (my own horse raced in Maiden Special Weights and in Maiden Claiming races at Prairie Meadows - his lowest claim price was $12,500 - when I got him, every indication was that he had been treated fabulously his entire life).
Yes, bad eggs exist, and bad situations exist. I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THEM. THAT has been my point all along.
From the OP’s return post.
I was visiting friends in des moines Ia. when this horse was not going to have a future any longer so I gave little monies and they delivered her to Mont. for me.
Also - because I can’t multiquote well on my phone - p3 she also says that she is going to run a few races at that track and retire as a broodie.
I think it was rustbreeches that actually knew that track and the type of meets that go on there…that might have been page 4 or 5. Said it was a fun weekend type of event, and not really a bush track.
I also don’t think, based on the original and subsequent post, that we can tell that the owner isn’t willing nor able to provide a good home for the mare - does the owner currently not know how to handle a pushy fresh off the track TB? Yes, which is why he or she came here for help.
But if you look at the rest of the update, she/he has stated quite a few things that make me think that perhaps the owner is savvier than one thinks - such as the purchasing of insurance. That’s not something that generally a neglectful person thinks about or does.
I think if all I’d had to go on was the original post, I might believe as you do - but reading that second post more clearly made me think differently.
[QUOTE=OneGrayPony;7001847]
From the OP’s return post.
Also - because I can’t multiquote well on my phone - p3 she also says that she is going to run a few races at that track and retire as a broodie.
I think it was rustbreeches that actually knew that track and the type of meets that go on there…that might have been page 4 or 5. Said it was a fun weekend type of event, and not really a bush track.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can be so sure that “not going to have a future any longer” means she was in a bad situation. I took it to mean that those owners were not going to race her anymore and were looking to rehome her…because she didn’t have a future as a racehorse. But I could be wrong; the post is not clear.
And, just because rustbreeches views the track as a “fun weekend type event” doesn’t mean it is a great place for a horse. One person’s “fun weekend” is another person’s disturbing experience. Do you know what a “wild horse” race is? If you do, I don’t see how you can take some anonymous person’s word for it that Miles City is a “fun weekend type event” when the place indisputably runs “wild horse” races, per their own website.
http://www.buckinghorsesale.com/schedule.html
I’m sure there are people out there who think that horse tripping also makes for a fun weekend, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t cruel.
Some examples of horses having a great time at the Miles City “fun weekend type event”:
I think the paint horse looks like he is having an awesome time when he falls to the ground and is on his back as these people try to tack him up for the wild horse race skip to around 7:50):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FbpVyCguzY
Some more horses having a great time and an awesome starting experience at Miles City:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TfFuvpaEO4
And some more enjoying the stellar horsemanship in Miles City:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RroDyzEyCXo
And some of this year’s fun! My favorite part is where the winner of this race collides with another horse at the end and falls down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqv8WdPtFDg
So, obviously, if this mare is at Miles City with horsemen like this, she is in great hands.
I don’t think you can be so sure that “not going to have a future any longer” means she was in a bad situation. I took it to mean that those owners were not going to race her anymore and were looking to rehome her…because she didn’t have a future as a racehorse. But I could be wrong; the post is not clear.
Well we could both be completely wrong, because the post is all we’ve got to go on. I was (at first) simply pointing out an alternative to the posts to the COTH pile-on.
I did read that and a few reviews of the event that said it wasn’t as it was made out to be. Not being in Montana, knowing the culture, I don’t feel qualified to judge, but do trust the judgement of people like rustbreeches that have first hand knowledge. Also from the articles that I read, it doesn’t seem like an unregulated place.
I also say this because I have had my eyes opened in the past to things that I thought were awful, but just really didn’t have first hand knowledge of, and noticed that every time I became outraged about things, there was usually more that I wasn’t considering.
I don’t think we’ll ever know, and of course, if it all falls apart, you are welcome to PM me and gloat I won’t hold it against you
I suspect that the people who participate in the wild horse race and the actual trainers at the track are different people. Don’t you?
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