Current thinking is that it is best if anti-venin is given regardless, as long as it’s a confirmed bite with envenomation, even if just 1 vial. That’s the current information I have seen given by the snake bite docs. Anti-venin administration will help to stop some of the pain, swelling, necrosis, and other issues associated with snake bites in both humans and animals. A lot of docs pass on the anti-venin and then just treat the issues, but the administration of anti-venin can stop a lot of the issues or make them less severe. It is expensive, of course. The last copperhead bite treatment bill I saw, with anti-venin given was over $100k.
Basically from the conversations that I have seen/heard, a lot of pain and suffering on the victim’s part could have been avoided if they had received anti-venin. The recovery period could have been reduced as well. The WHO also agrees with this information and it can be seen on their website.
This is not accurate. Benadryl does nothing for snake bites as stated by the veterinarian above. In the past, benadryl was given because the old anti-venin had a very high risk of allergic reaction, so the benadryl was given to people in anticipation of a reaction to the treatment, not the snake bite. CroFab, the newer anti-venin has a very very low risk of allergic reaction so the use of benadryl has gone away since it does absolutely nothing for snake bites.
There are doctors and veterinarians who are not up to date on their knowledge of snake bites and may still believe this.
These are rattlesnake specific but it’s what I was given so far (I haven’t read them yet) - Hayes WK. Venom metering by juvenile prairie rattle- snakes (Crotalus v. viridis): effects of prey size and experience. Anim Behav. 1995;50:33–40.
Hayes WK, Bush SP, Herbert SS, Rehling GC, Cardwell MD, Dugan EA. Defensive bites by rattlesnakes (genus Crotalus): venom expenditure, envenomation severity, and the importance of snake size. In: Program and Ab- stracts of the Biology of the Rattlesnakes Symposium. Loma Linda, CA: Loma Linda University; 2005:31.
Wingert WA, Chan L. Rattlesnake bites in southern California and rationale for recommended treatment. West J Med. 1988;148:37–44
Yes!! The can’t bite underwater thing is insane and also the venomous/non-venomous swimming either on top of or under the water thing.
I love it! We had a similar incident, but it wasn’t a big cat sadly. lol We had a call that a large equipment operator reported seeing a chimpanzee running down the right of way with a giant parrot. The company called us and said, “We’re gonna drug test the guy, but this is what he said”. Sure enough, later that day some people came by looking for their escaped chimpanzee and macaw. lol
One time we were radio tagging flattened musk turtles in Alabama and we kept catching snakes in the traps. We caught this tiny little hognosed snake and had set it in a cooler to release once we were done checking the traps. This guy comes by and freaks out because we have a pygmy rattlesnake in a cooler. lol No matter what we said we could not convince him that it was not a pygmy rattlesnake. I mean we even picked it up, nope, rattlesnake. lol Pointed out no rattle, nope, rattlesnake.
For a human and luckily for that person, it was covered by insurance.
Ok Dr. Greene, are you creeping here? I saw that you just posted one of the papers that I had posted, on the Snakebite FB page. lol Weird coincidence if not.
To follow up on these, I did find Dr. Hayes’ site (https://medicine.llu.edu/research/department-earth-and-biological-sciences/biology/research/william-k-hayes-phd-ms/venom#Defensive%20bites - if snakebites freak you out, you probably shouldn’t look at this page, but I found it fascinating & also amusing, as I love when people are excited about their research). He did not look at Copperheads (at least not that were mentioned, probably because they are an eastern species) but he DID find differences in defensive bites & amount of venom delivered between rattlesnakes and Cottonmouths (the latter are in the same genus as Copperheads).
From this, I would conclude that we are both right: juvenile venomous snakes in North America do appear to be less able to regulate venom release than, which means it is more likely that they will perform a “dump” when biting defensively. Behaviour during a defensive bite also varies with species. I know multiple parties who have experienced dry bites from adult Copperheads, so that is a strategy that is definitely used by these snakes & they physiologically “know” that venom is a valuable resource. However, this pattern does not hold across all venomous species & I would still be interested to know if there is any similar research specifically on Copperheads. I will have to also ask the herp gurus I work with.
Of course, the basic, most important answer is to always give snakes a safe berth – since they don’t have legs they are pretty terrible at jumping – and stay alert for potential hidey places to avoid unwelcome surprises. Another interesting note from Dr. Hayes’ research: wearing denim pants reduced the success of venom injection by rattlesnakes by as much as 2/3 so simply wearing jeans in rattler habitat can be a big help – I bet half chaps perform even better as a horse person’s handy snake gaiters we’re already wearing!
But the venom they could dump is much less significant (by 20-50xs and that’s being conservative) compared to adults, so if they did a venom dump, it isn’t necessarily worse than an adult bite. Also, many species of young snakes have more LMM (neurotoxins) venom because they hunt small quick prey, while adult snakes have more HMM (enzymes, most often metalloproteases) venom. LMM is more lethal than HMM technically, but again, it’s still in much lower volume than an adult snake would have/inject.
I’m still looking for one of the studies that actually metered venom from different species of snakes in different stages of life and said that the venom dumping wasn’t considered a thing due to their results. We are about to get hit with a hurricane, so I may either have a lot of time to dig soon or no capability to do so. lol. Mandatory evacuation started an hour ago, but we’re staying. Our county runs North to South and the Southern portion is prone to very bad flooding. We are up North, so think we’ll be ok. We were ok during Rita and they are saying this will be Rita allover again.
That is a very good point about available amounts & I did note in Dr. Hayes’ research that, particulary in the predatory bite portions, he documented that the amount of venom available was positively correlated to size in the species that he studied. I did a Google Scholar search (don’t even get me started on the fact that I should have library journal access as a dang agency biologist, but that has been a hot mess for years) looking for a multi-species study like you mentioned, but no luck so far.
Also, thank you so much for the great discussion, I love learning new animal facts (as is obvious by my fiscally-irresponsible career choice, LOL) & I truly find snakes mesmerizing & amazing in their unique & complex adaptations to their world.
And crossing all the things for you for storm safety! I worked in the Houston/Galveston area for a couple years after undergrad & living in Galveston during hurricane season definitely took several years off my life – I swore no more islands for me. I helped gut houses during Tropical Storm Allison cleanup, that was heartbreaking. Of course, we get our share of tropical systems here, but I am far enough inland (& bought the top of a hill for this reason) that it’s slightly less stressful - usually. Channel your inner Cottonmouth & don’t open your mouth underwater. ;):winkgrin:
I don’t find that the milk snake looks anything like a copperhead. Perhaps the reason that some people are unable to properly identify snakes because they are so afraid of them that they don’t take a good look. It helps if you grow up in an area that has snakes as well. We were taught in elementary school how to identify pit vipers.
I always appreciated the rattlesnakes for giving a warning that they were there.
When I was a kid the people up the road from us had a 7’ rattlesnake in their living room one summer. They called the police and the officer shot :eek: the snake with his service revolver while it was still in their living room. Everyone talked about that for days, since the long stick method of removing a snake was common knowledge to everyone (except apparently, the police officer). I suspect he must have been afraid of snakes.
I don’t need to “believe” this. I know it to be effective from experience. It’s very easy to see when your dog’s head is grossly swollen and goes down after dosing with Benadryl.
I didn’t think the milk snake and the copperhead looked at all alike either, the markings are quite different, but then again if I come across one I am going to get out of there fast and won’t bother to take time to identify which one it is. I am afraid of snakes and don’t blame that police officer at all for shooting the rattler! I might be more willing to use the long stick method with something less dangerous but not a rattler!:eek:
Well, everyone thought it was overkill, since there are other methods to remove snakes rather than discharging a 357magnum in someone’s living room. Seems unsafe to me (and the floor had to be repaired).
I agree it was unsafe if others were still in the room. A ricochet could have killed someone besides the snake and I’m sure it did a lot of damage. Presumably someone in law enforcement would know better. But if it was me I wouldn’t hesitate to kill it with whatever means available. OTOH I’m not a professional and would have panicked immediately.
:lol: This law enforcement professional apparently panicked immediately. It seems that managing big snakes was not in his wheelhouse. Honestly, who blows away a snake, indoors, with a high caliber revolver? If the lady would have called a neighbor I think the situation would have been dealt with just fine, with no gunfire.
It did give everyone a good laugh but only after they recovered from the shock that anyone would actually do that.
It’s actually a bit alarming to me how unbelievably ignorant people are about wildlife; snakes for sure but their local wildlife in general:
A woman I know proudly stomped a “baby copperhead” to death (baby black rat snake, which was easily ID’ed after its unfortunate demise)
Another woman pulled me aside when I was living in a condominium community to tell me “I hope you are aware of the snake problem here; there’s snakes here that CLIMB INTO CRIBS AND EAT INFANTS! THEY SMELL THE MILK ON THEIR BREATH!!!” (Note: the “snake problem” were black rat snakes. I literally was dumbstruck. I told her she was grossly misinformed but think it fell on deaf ears. Scanning the local papers garnered very little evidence of the baby murder spree:lol:)
Finally, not a snake, but a coworker sent me a photo of an animal under her birdfeeder and asked “WHAT is this?!” It was…drumroll folks…a groundhog. Lord help us.
I really have long maintained schools should teach students a class on local flora and fauna. It gets a bit discouraging to have to tell people a garter snake won’t kill their cat, or that every possum they see moving around slowly isn’t rabid, and the bats in their backyard aren’t going to fly into their home and suck their blood:no:
For me it depends on the antivenin and funds… Granted it is a small n number, but the majority of dogs I saw given a specific brand of antivenin (whole IgG molecule, not fragment) had an anaphylactic reaction… Vomiting, hypotension, collapse. Not anything to play with. I whole heartedly agree antivenin helps with local bite effects not just clotting times. But you have to assess the patient as a whole (mentation, GI signs, BP, coags, local bite effects - snake bite severity score) and weigh the risk of antivenin and cost. Thank goodness I work at a hospital that does not stock only the whole IgG molecule brand anymore… However the marketing was such on that antivenin that I do know of several hospitals that only carry that brand. Not one I would give lightly when pain meds will do the trick for the average copperhead bite.
”‹”‹”‹”‹We don’t mark up antivenin much and it is still $350-450/vial. Plus cost of diagnostics, catheter, hospitalization, etc and you are close to $800 for a vial and booting out the door with no hospitalization, rechecking coags and so on.
Cost unfortunately plays a giant role in vet med… Although I suppose in some ways it is fortunate because we don’t deal with the hassle of insurance companies and pet insurance as of yet hasn’t gone the way of human insurance to haggling over what price/tests/treatments they’ll cover etc
I agree, that it is too bad that children are not being educated about the natural world… :no: The characteristics of the local flora and fauna should be taught as a given. We were taught quite a bit about nature but especially about our local fauna back in the days of yore, and the library was always available to use for further study if you were interested in learning more in depth about the subject.
The internet should make it quite easy for people to be informed, I’d think.
Common sense really, to teach kids about their local wildlife, especially if there are critters to be avoided. The how-to-tell-a-pit-viper-poisonous-snake lesson that was taught in my elementary school class stayed with me. Handy lessons to know if you recreate out of doors or live in areas where critters abound.
I realize now that I must be a curmudgeon, because I have little patience with people who are unwilling to learn and get along with nature.
In Colorado and as we all know, in Yellowstone, every year there are incidents in National Parks, wildlife vs tourist, where the person is injured or killed because they either do not read the literature provided by the Park Service or that they think the Park Service is lying when they say that Elk, Bison, Bear etc… are wild animals and that you must not approach them.
It is stunning that some people seem incapable of understanding that not all of the world’s creatures are part of a petting zoo made specially for their pleasure.:no:
