The forums on COTH reveal, to me at least, a diversity in the HJ threads among posters. There are the AA experienced posters through the grass-roots posters. Unfortunately the disparity - mainly in disposable income - can be offensive to many. The simple fact is that horses are expensive to own and properly care for at all levels. The elite show hunters are a small group, with many of the top horses being recycled through many fortunate riders over time. I think this thread is talking about the most expensive hunters who actually win classes indoors. I remind myself that if not for these top show riders and horses and the financial support and sponsorships they offer, hunters would not be a “national” sport. We would not get to watch them compete on-line or in person, or maybe get to join them in the ring someday. Keeping personal progress in perspective is important. Having a “national” standard of excellence is a guide. IMHO
Absolutely a blanket, uninformed statement. Our head groom makes $75k a year plus benefits.
Most grooms are not making 75k plus benefits. But I do know one who makes six figures.
most are not making anywhere near that.
it’s awesome that your head groom is making that though.
+100
There is a big difference between what vets would say about acceptable body condition vs. what often walks into the ring at a major hunter show. Even in the hunter breeding world, there is a strong preference for large and fat youngsters, not something generally very good for growing horses.
I, too, disagree with the supposition that there has been a drift toward “immorality” when it comes to our sport. Like all endeavors, there are good and bad participants. I’m certain that there are some wealthy persons who treat their staff like garbage. There is no excuse for bad behavior, but I don’t find it remotely reflective of the situation at large. In fact, I think it is an ignorant mistake to suggest anything to the contrary.
If anything, at least in Wellington at the start of the season, there is a general shortage of qualified grooms and the market for them is very competitive. I don’t think that you will be surprised to learn that grooms of the horses mentioned in this post earn $100,000+ annually plus have their housing costs covered.
For a quality show groom at a top barn, the starting income is in the $900-1,000 per week range. Weekly bonuses are in the $100-200 range - almost always cash. Day money is in the $20-30 range - cash. They can expect to earn another $5,000 in annual bonuses. Their housing will probably be two per a room on the road at a hotel, or sharing a $1,500 per month two bedroom apartment in Wellington while in Florida. Total annual compensation for these grooms will average $65,000 - $80,0000 plus housing.
Private programs pay more. Show grooms will be $1,200-$1,500 per week. Weekly bonuses are $200-300. Annual bonuses are $5,000-$7,000. Some may get housing allowances. Total annual compensation for these grooms will average $75,000-$85,000.
Grooms talk. In Wellington, they all know what every other program pays. They know the A+ jobs, and there is very little movement among these positions. There is A LOT of turnover at the barns that try to skimp on care and pay. If you’re paying $750 per week in Wellington, then you should be prepared for turnover. Also, a top groom (worth their weight in gold!) will be impossible to keep.
These grooms work six days a week and often 10-12 hours per day. It’s a hard job. But, if they’re making care of millions of dollars of horses, then they’re worth every penny.
Most of the people that I know who maintain excellence at the very top of our sport treat their grooms exceptionally well. Yes - there are some jerks. But they don’t last, and neither do their horses.
I know that these costs may support the belief that costs are out of hand. That’s one perspective. The other is that the people at the top with the best programs are also taking the best care of their people AND their horses.
I think the top grooms at the top barns are in this range. I don’t think this is starting salary money, nor is this the anywhere close to the starting wage of the average groom at the average barn, even in Wellington. However, if you know of a concrete offer, I have a friend who’s Wellington job fell through and she is looking for another. Excellent horseman, decades of experience and good references.
Most top grooms at most top barns really aren’t making that much money, like six figures. As I said I know one personally. Others are making that top value weekly salary during wef, but not generally speaking year round. I know the top grooms at a lot of top yards here and in Europe, and that salary just isn’t the norm. Some good salaries can be had, but definitely not the high five figures mentioned above. And yes, some grooms stay in the same great job for years, but again that is not the norm, even at the top.
Some of those top places, even with great salary and housing, and good management they will still burn you out. And rest assured, there’s a lot of bad pay and bad managent, even at the Olympic level. It’s never ever a ten or twelve hour day and the physical pressure tied with real psychological and emotional pressure is daunting. Yes, caring for any horse is pressure, but caring for top international and Olympic horses? It’s a definite step up in intensity, even if the only pressure is coming from yourself.
again, there are a handful of really great salaries, a number of good salaries, but lots and lots of meh and/or shite salaries. And a lot of stress. A lot of amazing experiences, but a lot of stress.
Hi @Midge. Sent you a PM with the jobs I know of. Also, in my experience, believe it or not, top hunter barns pay more than jumper barns. A top FEI groom at an Olympic level program is at the top of the pyramid, but some of the private hunter programs are top dollar. Again, these might be exceptions and not rules. I don’t intend this as a measuring stick - only that for every ten lousy paying jobs there are a few very good ones.
Also, the point made above about stress is spot on. Top programs with top horses have high expectations. Quality of work life matters, and you can’t always put a price tag on that.
Measuring pay scales for grooms can be difficult.
Before I went back and did my post grad I was a groom for a BNT in Ontario. For the last two years I would have been the highest paid staff member.
I made about 35k per year, which hourly definitely wasn’t great with all the crazy long show days. But if I factored in all the freebies like rent, a barn vehicle for Florida, most of my meals in Florida, they paid my phone plan, Internet/cable, etc it would have been the equivalent to making 50-60k.
I wasn’t burnt out, I loved it, I miss it all the time. But it was a lifestyle choice. It worked at the time because I was single and my horse was a baby who wasn’t undersaddle yet. I knew it wasn’t a career that would allow me to buy a house or keep and show my own horse.
I am in the wrong business :lol:
I get that you get in trouble here for posting numbers but getting back to the original topic, a trainer in SF tried Belgravia for her junior rider after Belgravia literally won every class he entered at indoors. The price was $1.6 million. It was a done deal until they buyer couldn’t produce the cash. So, yes, definitively, the cost of an elite hunter is $750,000+. And yes these horses are for sale. And yes they do change hands. And everyone else who posted here is right about their experiences and points of view. These horse are works of art. Rare DNA. And overpriced. And it’s ridiculous that people pay more for horses than houses. The weirdest part is that all that can be true at the same time. Hey, I’m usually very defensive of prices but $1.6 million for a hunter is straight nuts insane bizarro crazy.
$1.6 million is nuts for a hunter; it’s certifiably INSANE that anyone would think that’s a reasonable price for a 3’3" AO horse.
How so? I don’t think anyone said it was a reasonable price. Just a price. It’s all about supply and demand, particularly when the owner is not in desperate need of money. And a horse that can win a ton with an amateur at Indoors is in very high demand.
Realistically, all these prices for any show horses are completely insane. Hunters or jumpers. Or equitation horses, for that matter. A race horse might stand an extremely slim but still possible chance to win a lot of prize money and then have a lucrative breeding career. A show horse, not so much. But that doesn’t stop people from buying them and showing them. Once in a while, someone might come out way ahead on a sale, but that’s not an everyday occurrence.
It’s all insane, especially when you remember there are starving children in the world, etc., etc.
Agree x100…but…
That horse has been successful as a second year and could easily be a 3’6" horse. I know two of the people working with that team. That horse is a 3’3" because he was purchased in late summer and they had their roster set for indoors. Plain and simple, they needed a 3’3" horse. They didn’t need a 3’6" horse. No matter because it’s an insane price for even a 3’6". The facts outlined are generally correct. The original purchase price was $1,750,000. They tried the horse in Lexington. Came back with a $1,600,000 offer. That offer was accepted. Then the people didn’t come up with the funds. Not saying anything bad about they buyers. It’s a lot of money, and the horse was shipping out the next day. The deal was pretty much pay now or he’s going home with us. They couldn’t get liquid quickly enough. That happens.
@ynl063w you are 100% right - it’s an insane price. No argument. The dirty little secret that no one is talking about is that what makes anyone think THEY will win with the same horse. You really can’t buy championships. You just can’t. You can maybe buy your way into an occasional blue ribbon but you can’t sustain success with a checkbook. It’s just not possible. That horse won every class all year at the most competitive shows. No one is arguing that it’s the best horse in its division. Not even close. But you still need to ride it. Very few people can ride a horse of that caliber and find eight jumps perfectly every round. If you can’t do that, then I don’t care who the horse is, you’re not winning.
My advice: Don’t reach for your wallet unless you (be it yourself, your kid, your sig other) has the chops to ride the horse. The only person who should buy a horse like that is the person who is always finishing second to it. If you are finishing seventh, then you still don’t have a chance. Because, by the way, the horses finishing second, third, fourth, and fifth are all owned by the same two people. So, unless you buy them too, then you’re probably still SOL.
I regret missing your post before posting myself. @MHM Thank you for your sage words. Spot on. On all accounts. Supply and demand. And starving children. And perspective is making me feel like a bad person for even entertaining these thoughts. I need to log off!
Eh. If we worried too much about perspective, the whole horse world would come to a sliding stop. Like a very expensive reining horse. :lol:
And welcome to the BB!
Based on the post that I responded to, someone thought that was a reasonable price; they just couldn’t come up with the cash in the end.
I guess I don’t understand why all of these super wealthy people keep raising the prices of horses for themselves. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that there are only so many buyers for these superhorses and that they tend to sell them among themselves. And they do. So it doesn’t make sense to me why someone would even consider paying $1.6 million for a horse that has won everything in the 3’3" AOs, but was middle of the pack in the few 3’6/3’9 divisions it has done. That just sets a hugely expensive precedent for the superstar 4’/4’6 horses that also carry their amateur owners around in the 3’6 AOs.
Maybe it’s just semantics, but there’s no way to know if the prospective buyer thought the price was reasonable. Maybe they thought the price was outrageous, but wanted the horse anyway. Hard to say.
People having been upping the prices on horses for a long time. It was about 35 years ago that I knew someone who spent $50,000!!!11!!&@! on a nice young horse that went on to be champion at Harrisburg. That seemed like an absolutely incredible sum at the time. And then…
I only responded to the words that the poster before me used: “I get that you get in trouble here for posting numbers but getting back to the original topic, a trainer in SF tried Belgravia for her junior rider after Belgravia literally won every class he entered at indoors. The price was $1.6 million. It was a done deal until they buyer couldn’t produce the cash.”
You can call it semantics if you’d like, but the words that the OP used said under no uncertain terms that the potential buyers were willing to spend $1.6 million for a 3’3 horse, but in the end, they couldn’t come up with the cash. The only conclusion to this story as written is that if the potential buyers had been able to come up with the cash, they would have bought themselves a winning 3’3 horse for $1.6 million.
How you can say that they might have thought the price was outrageous, but maybe wanted the horse anyway is so odd I don’t know what to say. If someone agrees to pay a price for something that is for sale, and they pay that price and then they own that thing, that completely negates the idea that they thought the price that they paid for it was outrageous. They clearly thought it was worth it. Buyers who think a seller’s price is outrageous will simply move on to another seller.
Thirty-five years ago top large green ponies in competitive zones (winning in the regular division too, and large greens jumped the same height as regulars back then) were going for $50k+ so your claim doesn’t seem unusual to me at all.
They might move on to another seller. But not if they’ve made up their mind that they Must. Have. That. Particular. Horse. At any price.
I’ve never had that outlook myself, but I’ve seen it happen a few times.
Horses are unique individuals. It’s not like buying the identical car from the next dealer in the next town. A buyer might decide they want a certain horse at any price, outrageous or not, just as an owner might decide they won’t sell a certain horse for any price. It might not happen all the time, but it does happen.
Because… horse people. We’re crazy. It’s just a question of degree. 
