Cost of elite hunter? Is it really $750,000+++???!!!

[PNWjumper]

@buschkn

I think the industry is in trouble, in my opinion, because the shows are WAY too expensive for “normal” people. So it gets more and more elite with each passing year. Then fewer people can participate, which drives the costs up for everyone else to keep the circus going, which pushes out more people, and so on. Just my impression. And I show, and develop horses, and breed, and all of the above so I do have an idea what I’m talking about. I just don’t understand how in Europe they can run a show and have you able to do two rounds for €30-50, keep track of the results, have nice facilities, etc, and here it will cost you $1000 to take your jumper to a show to jump two rounds in nominated classes. That’s not sustainable for most people TBH. I wish I knew the answer. But the more expensive the shows and other fixed costs to develop a top horse become, the more expensive the horses will continue to get.

Oh man, I’ve written about 12 novels in responses to this thread. But then I get distracted and when I come back the thread it’s changed direction! But now we’re on the topic of one of my biggest rants (I apologize in advance for my inability to be concise).

I agree with everything you posted, buschkn.

And I couldn’t agree more with your last paragraph. I started this thread 10 years ago, and I think it’s safe to say that things have only ballooned from there. I’m waiting for some show organizer somewhere to decide that it’s better to make the same amount of money off of twice the number of people than continuing to barrel towards the model of getting the most amount of money possible out of the fewest number of people. I “kept up with the Joneses” for many years and was able to continue showing my little group of horses. But 2018 was the first year where I opted out of a couple of multi-week shows and skipped some of my regular shows altogether because it’s gotten too ridiculous. I’m way too late to be the canary in the mine. Those all died a long time ago. I’m like the low man on the totem pole mine worker and now I’m starting to feel faint too

To IPEsq’s cost point. I have a business model I worked out prior to starting my import-to-sales program. Numbers are dependent upon horse costs, of course (and horse cost goes up dependent upon how many people recognize the talent of a given horse), but generally speaking, if I can find a nice young horse for $15k (and that’s already a big “if”), I’m in $45-50k (at minimum) by the time the horse is ready to be sold. That’s the cost of import, regular vet/farrier (etc.), upkeep costs, and a handful of horseshows. If something goes wrong that cost can go way up. Like buschkn, I’ve had sales horses come to me and immediately become unsuitable (e.g. one bruised his coffin bone at his first show and at 18 months in is just now returning to his prior level of work). And doesn’t count the money I spend on vetting horses that don’t pass.

So on the surface, the import-to-American-show-horse program seems like a pretty decent one (buy horse for $15-25k, sell horse for $60-100k). But I will be the first to say that when everything goes right, you’re still not making that much money. And those horses that people get massive offers on right out of the gate are such an exception it’s almost not worth mentioning. And I agree with dags, the odds of being able to find those “cheapie” european horses are almost nil for Amy Amateur. Can you turn over rocks and find something worth more money over here? Sure. But Amy Amateur can’t turn around and sell that cheap horse they found for piles of money because she doesn’t have the reputation of a pro or the ability to put the same show record on the horse. So (with some exceptions, of course) the only way someone’s paying big money for Amy Amateur’s import is if she paid a bunch of money for it in the first place (because then Big Pro Pam isn’t having to rely on Amy Amateur’s assessment of the horse, but instead on a history of talent recognition) OR if she spends almost that same amount of money campaigning it and thereby proving that it’s worth the price tag she wants.

And to that point, and back to my first point, the biggest cost for my program is the cost of showing. I had a mare that I imported earlier this year who I kept in Europe for a year. My trainers over there would send me bills and I would get horse shows added on that looked like this: “horseshow - 30euro, includes 7euro shipping.” And then I look over at my horseshow bill for the same horse in the US: “horseshow: $1200, not including braiding, shipping, hotel, etc.” Granted, a horseshow over there was haul in/haul out in one day, so you’re not comparing apples to apples in the size/time. But I’ve also done the haul-in-for-one-class game here…a couple of times for a finals class at the end of the season and a couple of times to do a timer walk for year-end championship eligibility. The cost the times I’ve done that are $450-$800. For one class, one day.

I remember tallying up the amount of money I spent making my OTTB into a GP horse. At this point I can safely say (and this relates back to those discussing the cost of experience versus buying the proven horse) that I could have spent several hundred thousand on a going horse and come out ahead.

So I would agree that we are in big trouble and heading in a bad direction. But I would also say that the elite hunters (and costs of one) haven’t changed that much over the years. We’re just seeing more of them as the pools of big show people condense down smaller and smaller. I always laugh that no matter where I go on the west coast from SoCal to Calgary, I’m showing against the exact same group of riders in the GPs. It used to be different people in Canada versus the NW versus NorCal versus SoCal. Not anymore. I don’t do much in the hunters, but I would guess it’s a similar experience as you get into the elite classes in each set of divisions (AA, AO, Derbies, etc.). There used to be a lot more regional and local diversity.

Again, we need to figure out how to get the shows to want to make the same profit off of more people to drive a healthier economic future for the sport as a whole. Just don’t know how to make that happen!

[Tiramit]

I’m not trying to take anything away from your work, dags. I applaud your efforts to be fair in a not always black and white field. Mine was more a general sadness observation about the sport and a wish that the tide could be turned, at least in such a way that working ammies have a chance of participating in the future.

In reading through this and many other similar threads, I’ve been struck by the following:

1. Needing an eye to spot a special talent: not new.
2. Finding and maintaining the right sourcing connections, not new.
3. The hard to describe qualities increasing value: not new.
4. Having to train and cultivate that freak talent: not new.
5. The wealthiest owners purchasing the most expensive horses: not new.
6. The top winners commanding the top prices: not new.
7. Freak talent + good riding winning the most prizes: not new.
8. Fixed costs including feeding, vet, farrier, boarding, etc: not new.
9. Horse dealers selling horses for more than they paid: not new.
10. Expected initial investment costing more than most people earn in a year: NEW.
11. Cost of showing exponentially increasing as options decrease: NEW.

It’s undeniable that the industry has changed. It’s the acceptance that one needs to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to, at best, have fun that makes me sad. That’s a change from showing in the past. If an investment horse sourced in Europe can’t be found for $30,000, even if it’s only so-so talented, and there’s a good chance it won’t be in sales shape for a long time, if ever, before taking on the equally expensive training period, there will be very few options left for the working ammie.

When I started showing, it seemed like everyone picked up an OTTB for -at most- a couple thousand, put the training in, and either kept it as a show horse or sold it six months later, which helped fund showing. The risk was lower because the initial investment was low, showing was less expensive, and a greater pool of people had fun without risking their retirements. I’ve watched the industry evolve and, given the costs, fewer people today can take a chance on a prospect. In other words, greater risk on import + higher investments = fewer ammie participants overall.

I get that times have changed and the once less expensive horse sources have raised their rates. But that doesn’t explain some of the rates once these same horses hit US soil. Not everyone is putting in the training and time to justify the higher prices. I know of more than a few dealers who significantly raise horse prices shortly after arrival. One barn I know had a young, barely backed warmblood of unrecorded breeding, with 4 alarmingly crooked legs, a club foot, and a rather crappy jump (free - hadn’t tried under saddle), selling in the mid 5 figures. Sadly, it sold. It appears there’s a piggyback effect that once one asks x, others think that’s the new market rate and increase in kind.

So why have the prices all jumped up (and up and up down the line)? There are obviously solid professionals whose horses legitimately earn their price tags, but when thinking of the overall market? It’s hard not to consider hands taking a bigger cut then ever before. Fine, people need to make a living. But unless we want this train to continue on its path toward only the very wealthy at shows, then perhaps some transparency should be put in place. As long as the current sales process is accepted (and show prices sky rocket) the show world will continue to increase across the board with fewer and fewer people able to keep up.

[Wanderosa]

@Sunflower

I do not expect this to be a shared or popular opinion-- but there is something I find very obscene about spending that level of money on a child’s hobby. No, this is not about bank balance envy, or anything even remotely close. But if that amount of money buys a horse that wins regardless of what the rider does, then what joy or thrill can there be from a win? As it is not a testament of rider skill. Only of a bank balance. You could get the same result by having someone judge a financial sheet.

If you get pilloried for saying this, I guess I’m right there with you! I remind my daughter sometimes that I understand that it’s a wonderful feeling to win a ribbon. But let’s also ride the horses that challenge us to think and stretch as riders. Even if it means you come out of the show ring empty handed but for your sense of personal accomplishment. It’s nice to win a 20 cent piece of fabric. But even nicer to see the $250k wire into your bank account for the horse that you brought along from an untrained baby

'm also of the wildly unpopular opinion that hunter eq standards are ridiculously wrong and horrible for the rider and horse. Close your hip angle. Stick your butt out. Use a stirrup angle that forces you to be quad dominant and puts ridiculous strain on your ankles. And then complain to me that you have no idea why your knees are blown out.

[GoodTimes]

I suppose I’m the only one who isn’t bothered about the current state of affairs.
I’m a regular working ammie. I move between the B circuit and A circuit in Ontario depending on finances. I bought my A/O Hunter as a yearling and have done 90% of the work myself (he’s 9 now).
I don’t expect to take this horse to biggest shows on the continent and win, but if I really wanted too I could go to Florida for a couple weeks and enjoy the venues.

This thread sounds like a bunch of hockey parents complaining that their house league star won’t get to play in the NHL. That’s life.

I also am not sure why everyone is so focussed on imports? If you really think you have the eye for a special why not look for nice young horses in Canada and the US? My parents have a farm so I pick up a weanling or yearling every few years to keep my retired guy company. By 3 years old I still have less than $15,000 invested. The last one I was able to sell before they turned 4 and I profited $16,000. That horse is being geared towards the A’s for an older amateur. I was able to go out and buy another baby, and the rest will help with my showing. It’s not a quick flip scheme but I have fun doing it.
Locally the imports don’t have the same prestige that they had 10 years ago.

[Linny]

Horses like the ones mentioned in the OP are extremely rare and there are so few people able (or willing) to spend that type of money. A horse is worth what someone is willing to offer and the other party is willing to accept.
My experience with big $$$ horses is mostly from racing, where top horses sell at public auction. At the sale everyone knows which are the elite offerings. Auctioneers know the people involved and it’s not rare to hear them almost taunting from the podium with comments like “You’re not going to let Aiden get this one that cheap, like he did yesterday…etc” Thus the house is driving bidding by appealing to the ego of very wealthy bidders who know exactly who they are bidding against.
While it isn’t a public auction setting, at the rarified level, most of the players know exactly who else is in their market. If a top horse becomes available, it’s very likely that all of the potential buyers know exactly who the other potential buyers are and how high they are willing to go. As has been discussed, at the top the pyramid gets very small, all the top owners/riders/trainers know each other. They chat and know who might be interested in that horse on the verge of the breakthrough into the very top of the top or that BIg Eq horse who’s owner is facing financial reversal or the Euro jumper who’s partnership is dissolving into chaos.

As for imports, the Euros have educated themselves about the US hunter market. They are no longer selling slow or less scopey (read non 1.4 ) horses for cheap money just to get them sold. Jumpers from Europe were always expensive because you were competing for them with a global marketplace. Now that Euro sellers are willing to put the time and effort into making a non jumper prospect into a hunter or EQ type over there, American buyers are being forced to pay for that training.

[SnicklefritzG]

That is not it at all.

It has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, by multiple people, that there are various levels on which to play.
Not everyone is able to play on the level of high 6 figure horses and everyone understands that.

A variety of circuits exist that provide opportunities for people to show at a level appropriate for their ability and that of their horse.

It has also been said on this thread that the rising prices on the top horses has trickled down and is impacting prices for horses shown on the lower circuits. this contributes to making showing more difficult for everyone.

@GoodTimes

This thread sounds like a bunch of hockey parents complaining that their house league star won’t get to play in the NHL. That’s life.

[Wanderosa]

@dags

It is getting tougher to find deals in Europe; they’ve wizened up quite a bit just in the past 5 years. My particular clients were very keen to hear what made one a hunter other than it just being “too slow”… they eventually learned to steer quiet + average to the equitation track, and quiet + gorgeous to the hunter track, and sell the rest quick for whatever they can get. They started taking long-topline conformation shots in addition to the proud jumper stance type, started weaning the horses off the short rein contact, bought fake flowers and logs for their jumps, and found legions of american kids happy to two-point around in sale videos for a 3 month working stint in Europe.

In short, Europe has gotten very, very smart. $30k does not get you what it used to there, even just 5 years ago, no more flipping rocks and finding bargains. It takes a lot of good connections and $h!t sifting to find someone that doesn’t know what they have. Most amateurs don’t have the contacts to find it and most trainers don’t have the time sift through $h!t just to make even less money.

I can understand why an amateur might be getting nudged near 100k for a very nice AO hunter prospect that she can also enjoy as it learns to become a winning citizen. Depending a whole heck of a lot on the amateur’s ability, work schedule, and near-term goals, she may be putting a good chunk of that $$$ towards a tremendously good brain and at least enough US show miles for it to be a somewhat known quantity. Can she do it for less? Absolutely, but probably at a higher risk to her goals, and so it begs the question why?

Lol. I can tell you why. Because I can’t foresee ever being able to spend even $30k for a horse. If I got it in my head that i wanted to compete at the highest levels, I’d have no choice but to risk it all betting on an unbacked horse and a whole lot of work.

[Wanderosa]

@Laurierace

That is the same as any horse related discipline. You can spend several million to buy a horse who has already won enough money to qualify for the Kentucky Derby or you can spend several million on countless numbers of cheaper horses that may or may not pan out to become what you want. If you don’t have several million you can buy young and relatively inexpensive and pray.

That makes sense in the racing world. But do the majority of professional riders in other disciplines aiming for the biggest titles in the world want a finished horse? My understanding is that most do not.

i agree with the rest of your points, though. You could compare the cost of an elite horse to a Mega Millions jackpot that no one wins and keeps rolling over week after week. It’s hedging a series of risky bets. First, that the horse is the 1 in 1000s that has the necessary raw athletic ability. And then that that horse will stay uninjured and in good mental health through the rigors of competition. And the price of entry fees, vets and farriers, etc.

I could see where an elite Hunter could cost $750k. I personally wouldn’t derive much satisfaction from buying such a horse for the sole purpose of ensuring I couldn’t be beat at a show. (Not that I have that kind of money.) But it’s keeping people in jobs and making other people happy. So I guess it is what it is.

[GoodTimes]

@SnicklefritzG

That is not it at all.

It has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, by multiple people, that there are various levels on which to play.
Not everyone is able to play on the level of high 6 figure horses and everyone understands that.

A variety of circuits exist that provide opportunities for people to show at a level appropriate for their ability and that of their horse.

It has also been said on this thread that the rising prices on the top horses has trickled down and is impacting prices for horses shown on the lower circuits. this contributes to making showing more difficult for everyone.

I’m haven’t seen this trickle down effect that you speak of. The prices of mediocre horses in Ontario haven’t changed much in at least 10 years, maybe even 15-20 years. I can’t speak to the truly elite, but I’m talking the 10k - 100k horses.
The cost of showing at the level of these horses may have gone up, but I don’t attribute that to the cost of elite horses. I attribute that to thinks like the skyrocketing real estate prices, the cost of things like tractors, trucks, trailers, a general rise in the cost of living that doesn’t match the slow wage increases. AKA the general economy, not the price tag on a couple horses showing at the very top.

I just watched the AA’s and AO’s show at the RAWF in Toronto. The nicest amateur hunters in Ontario/Canada. I know several of the people who were showing quite well. The expensive imported hunter with the owner who likes to drop names didn’t do nearly as well as my “average” friend who leased a bred and trained in Ontario horse.

[SnicklefritzG]

I’ve seen costs go up in my area across the board. The amount of money one needs to get a horse who can get a piece of the action in a B/C type of show vs A is up as well. Maybe you haven’t seen it in your area, but I’ve seen it in mine.

@GoodTimes

I’m haven’t seen this trickle down effect that you speak of. The prices of mediocre horses in Ontario haven’t changed much in at least 10 years, maybe even 15-20 years. I can’t speak to the truly elite, but I’m talking the 10k - 100k horses.
The cost of showing at the level of these horses may have gone up, but I don’t attribute that to the cost of elite horses. I attribute that to thinks like the skyrocketing real estate prices, the cost of things like tractors, trucks, trailers, a general rise in the cost of living that doesn’t match the slow wage increases. AKA the general economy, not the price tag on a couple horses showing at the very top.

I just watched the AA’s and AO’s show at the RAWF in Toronto. The nicest amateur hunters in Ontario/Canada. I know several of the people who were showing quite well. The expensive imported hunter with the owner who likes to drop names didn’t do nearly as well as my “average” friend who leased a bred and trained in Ontario horse.

[RugBug]

@GoodTimes

I suppose I’m the only one who isn’t bothered about the current state of affairs.
I’m a regular working ammie. I move between the B circuit and A circuit in Ontario depending on finances. I bought my A/O Hunter as a yearling and have done 90% of the work myself (he’s 9 now).
I don’t expect to take this horse to biggest shows on the continent and win, but if I really wanted too I could go to Florida for a couple weeks and enjoy the venues.

This thread sounds like a bunch of hockey parents complaining that their house league star won’t get to play in the NHL. That’s life.

I also am not sure why everyone is so focussed on imports? If you really think you have the eye for a special why not look for nice young horses in Canada and the US? My parents have a farm so I pick up a weanling or yearling every few years to keep my retired guy company. By 3 years old I still have less than $15,000 invested. The last one I was able to sell before they turned 4 and I profited $16,000. That horse is being geared towards the A’s for an older amateur. I was able to go out and buy another baby, and the rest will help with my showing. It’s not a quick flip scheme but I have fun doing it.
Locally the imports don’t have the same prestige that they had 10 years ago.

@GoodTimes - do you board your horses?

[Lord_Helpus]

I have read that things have changed and prices have gone up, but I stopped showing in 1984 when I became an attorney (I passed the bar in 1983). So I can say with assurance that my memory of these 3 events happened in the early 80’s at small barns (housing 1 horse, 8 horses, and 6 horses).

The “1 horse barn”: a lady bought a horse for $1000 as an unbroken yearling, and sold it 5 years later for $200,000. It went back east and changed hands several times, as each junior aged out, until it was selling for $500,000.

The “6 horse barn”: The horse sold back east for the, then, highest price ever paid for a hunter: $750,000. Between the vetting and the arrival of the check, I had my birthday. The seller was my friend and she offered to let me jump him around as a birthday present. I could not resist. Thank GOD nothing happened to him and I had the time of my life.

The “8 horse barn”: An Amateur was offered $1,000,000 for her horse. And she turned it down!! She had enough money that she did not need more, and she could not easily go out and find another horse that was as special.

Keep in mind, these were 3 horses that came out of a very small area in Northern California in the early 1980’s. There must have been many more horses in this price ranges selling in Southern California and on the East Coast, almost 40 years ago. Ungodly sums are not a new occurrence.

[Madison]

@SnicklefritzG

I’ve seen costs go up in my area across the board. The amount of money one needs to get a horse who can get a piece of the action in a B/C type of show vs A is up as well. Maybe you haven’t seen it in your area, but I’ve seen it in mine.

That’s definitely what I’ve observed as well. It doesn’t even need to do the 3’6" to be expensive - the 3’ horses are in high demand, and the prices reflect it.

[MHM]

@Lord Helpus

The “6 horse barn”: The horse sold back east for the, then, highest price ever paid for a hunter: $750,000. Between the vetting and the arrival of the check, I had my birthday. The seller was my friend and she offered to let me jump him around as a birthday present. I could not resist. Thank GOD nothing happened to him and I had the time of my life.

That’s hilarious!

It was 25 years ago that I had the task of riding a horse that was priced to sell at $1,000,000 while his owner was out of town. He was a lovely horse, but my enjoyment was a little bit mitigated by the parting information from his owner that the horse had a pretty good buck in him, and if by chance he bucked me off, I should try to hang on to the reins so he wasn’t running loose around the property. That was a little stressful! But luckily he never bucked with me. :lol:

For sure, expensive horses are not a new thing.

[BLBGP]

@MHM

That’s hilarious!

It was 25 years ago that I had the task of riding a horse that was priced to sell at $1,000,000 while his owner was out of town. He was a lovely horse, but my enjoyment was a little bit mitigated by the parting information from his owner that the horse had a pretty good buck in him, and if by chance he bucked me off, I should try to hang on to the reins so he wasn’t running loose around the property. That was a little stressful! But luckily he never bucked with me. :lol:

For sure, expensive horses are not a new thing.

Ha! I remember hanging off the side of a fancy equitation horse and my trainer yelling “don’t you dare fall off that horse, he’s too expensive!” Somehow that gave me the tenacity to claw back on. I agree - prices like this were around 20-30+ years ago. You just didn’t hear about them as easily pre-internet.

[MHM]

@BLBGP

Ha! I remember hanging off the side of a fancy equitation horse and my trainer yelling “don’t you dare fall off that horse, he’s too expensive!” Somehow that gave me the tenacity to claw back on. I agree - prices like this were around 20-30+ years ago. You just didn’t hear about them as easily pre-internet.

That is absolutely true. There are many things in the horse business, and in all walks of life, that have been going on forever. But now people hear about them on the internet.

[SnicklefritzG]

When I was a teenager, I recall someone at my barn saying how they had just paid $X for a horse to do the Medal/Maclay with and how that was a lot of money. I don’t even want to say what $X was or that will no longer make me feel like 25. :lol:

[Atlas_Shrugged]

I figure it costs at least 100K per yr to show and maintain a greenie - so multiply that times the number of years it takes to move from 2’6 to, say 3’9 second years or beyond, while maintaining their greens status each year. So a 4 or 5 yo starting to show takes me about 4 yrs to reach first or second years - And that is if I do most of the training and showing myself.

[GoodTimes]

@RugBug

@GoodTimes - do you board your horses?

I board my hunter and I split the cost of keeping my semi-retired guy and the young horse at my parents farm. My mom rides too and enjoys having the horses at home. I’m not sure why that’s relevant?

[ynl063w]

@Atlas Shrugged

I figure it costs at least 100K per yr to show and maintain a greenie - so multiply that times the number of years it takes to move from 2’6 to, say 3’9 second years or beyond, while maintaining their greens status each year. So a 4 or 5 yo starting to show takes me about 4 yrs to reach first or second years - And that is if I do most of the training and showing myself.

Can you confirm that you are saying that you don’t pay a trainer and your show and maintenance costs for a green horse is at least $100K per year?

@GoodTimes

I board my hunter and I split the cost of keeping my semi-retired guy and the young horse at my parents farm. My mom rides too and enjoys having the horses at home. I’m not sure why that’s relevant?

Your original post where you described how you are able to keep and show horses was a bit tone deaf. Most people who would like to compete seriously don’t have parents who own a farm where they can buy a weanling/yearling and let it sit until it grows up (do you really not know this?). You say that you can keep one of those at your parents’ house and by the time it’s 3 years old you have less than $15K in it as though anyone who doesn’t do that is an idiot (and $15K for 3 years of growing up is not even close to “splitting” costs if you have to board because your parents don’t own a farm). You also mention B circuits that you attend; for the most part, those don’t exist here in the US anymore. It’s really nice for you that you are privileged enough to have a family that is able to support your expensive hobby in a way that makes it affordable for you, but to imply that those who have posted opposing experiences to yours are just stupid for not doing it right is a little insulting, thoughtless, and ignorant.