Cost of Veterinary Care - a Vent

[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;7394751]
Huh? Why would you assume I thought your dog had complications? I was merely sharing about a horrid experience with a similar situation to yours (tail amputation). No where did I imply you subjected your dog to an awake surgery or that your vet did it with nail clippers.

Some vets who are well established and can afford to lose money on a procedure for good clients will offer it. Sounds like this was your case (assuming you didn’t let him do it with your dog awake!!). However, not all vets can offer services at a loss.[/QUOTE]

Of course they can’t. but ‘taking a loss’ doesn’t explain the 800 dollar difference.

800 dollars?!

To many people profit is a nasty word, however it drives decisions and rewards those that take a risk of being the owner. In order for a business model to be sustainable one must actually make a profit. Profit is the reward, salary, pay check, call it what you want, to those who take the risk. In order to make that profit you must charge a fee that covers your costs first. Those costs maybe COGS, salaries of both veterinarians and staff, equipment, office supplies, disposables but are not limited to these. When your food animal veterinarian does his accounting all of his costs out are different. But trust me he has still priced himself so that he makes a profit. That is the reason they do it. They aren’t being kind to you and helping you out. They still see you as a pay check at the end of the day. Their costs are just different on the books.

You must keep in mind that some of these large animal veterinarians haven’t see or done CE on a dog or cat in years and knowing that is a huge risk that one should not take. You do not go to your cardiologist and expect then to know how to performance gynecological exam. Sure they can do it but to they really know what they are doing? My equine vet is wonderful but she still takes all of her small animals into a small animal clinic.

[QUOTE=Justmyluck;7384977]
There is a lot more to becoming a veterinarian than just loving animals. The guilt trip people experience from their veterinarians is far less than the veterinarians get from owners. I teched for three years before starting vet school and the number of calls related to owners wanting care for nothing. People screaming at me that I was a murderer because we wouldn’t treat their animals. I’ve been told I was in the wrong profession because it was obvious I didn’t love animals. Sorry you should have brought your dog in on the first day of diarrhea not after it had been having bloody diarrhea for 4 days.[/QUOTE]

This.
In spades.

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7385340]
Can anyone explain to me why Dontral is by prescription only?

The short answer would be that that is the way the drug company brought it to market.

I actually have an issue with so many medications and tests - human and animal - being by prescription only.

Great. So the general public should have open access to drugs so that they can overuse/misuse them based on whatever information they read on the 'net, be it accurate or not.
We have enough problems with antibiotic resistance, for instance, now, even though most are Rx. I shudder at the thought of putting those OTC.

At one time some vets would charge a $10 prescription fee for their normal animal clients. OP -eta. not op, but spotteddrafter - went to her normal vet of ten years and had that experience which is indefensible for the vet/veterinary association. They are harming animals and they know it.

Bullhockey. While a prescription charge leaves a bad taste in the client’s mouth, if the charge doesn’t show up there, it’s going to end up somewhere else–office visit or procedure fee, etc. If the practice has to make a given income to stay afloat, it is going to come from somewhere.

eta: and how many of you have prescription horse meds on hand for emergencies?

I’ve been told directly by the board of registration in my state that it is against regulations to dispense prescription drugs for an owner to simply “have on hand”. Unlss the Rx is for a particular animal for a particular issue for which I have examined it, it is agin’ the rulz.

I don’t blame you in the least for taking that path, but I’d be very surprised if the “adoption place” fees weren’t subsidized by non-profit status and donations.

[QUOTE=moonriverfarm;7391640]
I declined the $75 bloodwork which was to look for an infection pre-surgery. [/QUOTE]

If I were running pre-op bloodwork, I’d also be looking to see whether there were any issues with kidney and liver values, which might well change the approach to sedation/anesthesia, or even whether it was a sensible risk.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7395480]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7385340]Can anyone explain to me why Dontral is by prescription only?

The short answer would be that that is the way the drug company brought it to market.

Great. So the general public should have open access to drugs so that they can overuse/misuse them based on whatever information they read on the 'net, be it accurate or not.
We have enough problems with antibiotic resistance, for instance, now, even though most are Rx. I shudder at the thought of putting those OTC.

Bullhockey. While a prescription charge leaves a bad taste in the client’s mouth, if the charge doesn’t show up there, it’s going to end up somewhere else–office visit or procedure fee, etc. If the practice has to make a given income to stay afloat, it is going to come from somewhere.

I’ve been told directly by the board of registration in my state that it is against regulations to dispense prescription drugs for an owner to simply “have on hand”. Unlss the Rx is for a particular animal for a particular issue for which I have examined it, it is agin’ the rulz.[/QUOTE]

Prescriptions:
Absolutely. I think that people have a right to medications without that medication’s being filtered through a physician. Am I less likely to fail to take my course of antibiotics because a physician’s assistant tells me that it is important than if a pharmacist tells me it’s important? No. On the basis of the last year or so, I’ll take a pharmacist’s recommendation over that of a physician. My point, however, was not that all medicines should be available without a prescription, but that a prescription requirement should be the exception rather than the rule. I do not think that Dontral should be a prescription. I do think that narcotic pain relievers should be by prescription. It is not clear to me that there is any benefit for antibiotics being prescription only, though I know that argument and could hear more on it. I do not understand why I had to go 50 miles to my pediatrician for a simple, preliminary strep test for my kids when that test - the preliminary one - could have been purchased at a local pharmacy. That kind of thing.

Vet prescription charge:

Ypu misread my post, I think. I have no objection to a prescription fee and, in fact, think that is a very good way to provide prescriptions for animal patients. It requires a discussion with the vet who is the animals’ regular vet, but not a specific examination for each prescription. An excellent solution. Even at my favorite vet’s office, there is some kind of prescription fee charge when the pills come in the official bottle as opposed to when the bottle is refilled. So, it’s there, too, as you said, even when it’s not separated out in the billing.

Energency meds on hand:

I don’t keep emergency meds on hand for my horses,as my horse vet didn’t like to do that. But, everyone I know does, so even vets will send me to other patients whom I know to get a shot in an emergency. It’s pretty irresponsible as a horse owner to not have some method of emergency treatment for horses, and the vet association must recognize that as there are so many vets who do enable their clients to have such meds on hand. Had I not liked my vet so much, I would have dropped him over the issue - as it was, I never said anything as I know how to get the meds from friends or neighbors. Also, I’ve never had many horse issues, so didn’t need many prescription meds. Now, when I had the very old cats, I always kept antibiotics on hand for them per my small animal vet. Her position was that as soon as I perceived an infection, I should start the meds immediately and call her. It was a fantastic system the kept the infections from getting bad before treatment started. That added years to the lives of those cats who were all in their 20’s.

The rules need to change and it is incumbent upon the vets to change the rules that govern their profession.

A couple of “asides”:

I think my 30 pound dog’s pre surgery blood work was $250. The vet left that as optional - but I felt it was necessary. (surgery for mammary tumor biopsy and teeth cleaning). My estimate for the surgery was about $700 with the idea that it could go higher. By the time it did, and I obtained certain add on’s that I though necessary it was just about double that. The thing is that I was given a choice - I added everything except the toenail clipping. Since I was given a choice, and made an informed decision, I am happy with the bill. Did the additional services cost more than I expected? Yes. Do I have any complaints? No. My decision and a good result.

I think there is pressure on vets who are trying to build a business and sometimes they succumb to those pressures at the expense of their patients. Veterinary medicine is unique in that it is both mandatory, sometimes life-saving, while being volitional on the part of the owner. The patient has no say and the value judgments are made by the owner who can always rationalize his decision. There is a fine balance that vets face and the profession has to take that into account in its rules and regulations.

I wonder why people really hate for veterinarians to make a good living. It GALLS them. The human doctor who drives a beautiful new car and lives in a gorgeous expensive house is totally normal and acceptable, but god forbid an animal doctor live half as well.

We’re paying for the KNOWLEDGE. I know a lot about animals after a lifetime with them, but god help me if (knock on wood) my dog bloats or fractures a leg or gets hit by a car, or my horse tears an eyelid on a fence nail or…or…or…or…

As much as we know and can do for ourselves, we NEED someone who can fix the serious things. These people are physicians. Physicians have very specialized knowledge they’ve worked very hard to obtain and maintain. (well, maybe not Dr. Pol on the maintaining part. ;))

I’m looking forward to numerous threads on why cars cost so much. After all, the car dealer only paid $X for each one of those cars on the showroom floor, but charges THOUSANDS more than the car cost him! That’s outrageous!

And McDonald’s charges $1.00 for a soda. You know how much that soda costs McDonald’s? Cup included? $0.17. How dare they charge me around SIX TIMES AS MUCH as the soda cost them. How dare they!!!

[QUOTE=katarine;7395311]
Of course they can’t. but ‘taking a loss’ doesn’t explain the 800 dollar difference.

800 dollars?![/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, it can easily be $800.

Exam fee $50-100
Pre-anes blood work 65-100
IV catheter, IV fluids $100-200
Pre-anesthetic narcotic for pain management $30
Anesthesia Induction (propofol and intubation)$100
Anesthesia and Monitoring $150
Surgical procedure, including packs/OR $100-350
Post op bandage application $25
Bottle of metacam $75
Antibiotics $40

Which is why it makes me wonder HOW a vet could do it for less unless they take a loss.

It was very good of your vet to do it at $49!! But of all vets, its usually the older cow vets who do not have the overhead costs of a large clinic that can offer these services cheapr. The bottle of propofol alone (the anesthetic agent) for us to order it $40.

I once had a dog spayed for $15. the dog did just fine, and I understood the risks of no IV access, fluids or monitoring. She was a shelter dog who was up for euthanasia. I totally get doing things on the cheap, but also its important to educate clients that the risks CAN be higher (mortality, infection, pain) when certain techniques are not uses. Sometimes though, its all we can do and vets do need to be respectful of that. However, its also not fair to knock places that charge more because they provide a completely different level of care either.

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7395825]

I’m looking forward to numerous threads on why cars cost so much. After all, the car dealer only paid $X for each one of those cars on the showroom floor, but charges THOUSANDS more than the car cost him! That’s outrageous!

And McDonald’s charges $1.00 for a soda. You know how much that soda costs McDonald’s? Cup included? $0.17. How dare they charge me around SIX TIMES AS MUCH as the soda cost them. How dare they!!![/QUOTE]

But you are not a used car salesman, and you are not selling someone a frivolous, unnecessary item. You are a professional, and there is a different mentality and different ethics in being a professional.

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7395864]
But you are not a used car salesman, and you are not selling someone a frivolous, unnecessary item. You are a professional, and there is a different mentality and different ethics in being a professional.[/QUOTE]

I paid a professional $80 for a 15 minute eye exam. She wasn’t going to do it if I couldn’t afford it.

SquishtheBunny, this is off topic but I think you are a good person to answer this question. It’s one I have had for awhile. As a veterinarian, to whom do you owe your fiduciary duty - the animal or the owner? A lawyer’s duty is to his client. A physician’s duty is to his patient. As a vet you in some ways have both a client in the owner and a patient in the animal. Vet medicine is unique.

Im not a vet - but have worked in general practice, emergency and referral practices. I have seen a lot.

Sometimes vets have to do things against their wishes because a client wants things done a certain way. However, the grey area is large. While vets typically want to please their clients, sometimes their expectations can be unreasonable and they have to inform client that what they want may or may not be in the pet/patients best interest.

Here is one example:

  • Cat presents to hospital non ambulatory, and with tremmors. Owner states she has limited finances, but wants us to do everything in our power to fix cat.
  • Vet recommends bloodwork to rule out toxins, xrays to check for spinal fractures etc.
  • Bloodwork comes back relatively normal, xray clear.
  • Cat deteriorates and is constantly seizuring.
  • Vet recommends euthanasia due to poor prognosis and financial constraints.
  • Client refuses euthanasia, wants to make cat better.
  • Vet suggests MRI to rule out brain tumor. Owner can not afford, but will not euthanize.
  • Vet recommends valium CRI to control seizures. Owner consents.
  • Cat continues to do poorly, falls into coma.
  • Vet once again rcommends euthanasia or AND (allow natural death)
  • Client/owner refuses, and wants cat better. Consents to brain MRI.
  • Perform MRI, major infection noted in brain. CSF tap performed. Likely FIP in the brain.
  • Vet recommends euthanasia again due to no chance of recovery. Client/owner refuses and does wish to persue CPR if cat arrests.
  • Vet states that at this point, her cat is palliative - there is nothing more they can do to “fix” the cat - only keep it palliative until it passes. As cat is in coma, recommends taking cat home to die (as it would be a faster death). Client wishes to put cat on life support.
  • Vet places cat on ventilator for life support, with written consent from owner that if cat does not regain consciousness within 48 hours they will terminate all life support.
    Cat finally passed hours before the 48 period was up.

This was SUCH an emotional rollercoaster for the ICU technicians. We watched the cat seize for days. The owner came out with a $10,000 bill (7 days of ICU, MRI, spinal tap, blood, life support). Everyone at the hospital was so frusterated that she would not euthanize the cat, or allow it to die. THe vet most of all. He was SO patient with the owners, spending at least 4 hours a day on the phone with them (mother and daughter) going over status updates, reiterating the fact that the patient was terminal etc. Then face to face with them, the same thing.

So…I guess my answer is a combination. The vet is to provide a service to the owner on behalf of their pet. However, it is up to the vet to perform reasonable medicine for the pet, not allow suffering or put them in a potentially harmful situation. The example above is a good one of how a vet had to service the client, while keeping the patient comfortable and “doing no harm”.

Here is a situation where I do NOT believe the vet serviced the client OR the patient:

10 year old golden retriever was vomiting for 4 days. Vet recommended bloodwork and xrays. Liver values were up mildly, otherwise no indicators on bloodowrk for anytihng else. There was a funny area in the intestines on xray, but nothing specific.

Vet suggests to owner to have an exploratory surgery for a potential foreign body.

Owner consents. Owner was NOT given option of ultrasound to look for why liver values were up, or to confirm presence of foreign body.

Vet opens dog up, has a soft tissue mass in intestine. Vet cuts it out, and finishes up with surgery. Sends client to ER for overnight monitoring. Does not send soft tissue mass out for pathology (told owner it was just a soft tissue mass).

Dog becomes septic at ER clinic day 2. Has to go back in for surgery. Boarded surgeon noted giant mass on liver, and dead intestine covered with cancerous nodules. Dog was euthanized on table.

TWO surgeries could have been prevented if the owners were given the option to have an ultrasound done prior to surgery. This would have revealed liver mass, and multiple intestinal masses consistent with cancer. Owner and medical records state that ultrasound and further diagnostics were never offered to the client.

In this case, vet did no service to client OR patient. However, the initial costs were cheaper without extra diagnostics. In the long run, client could have saved about $6000 if they were offered a $495 ultrasound.

You are correct - vet medicine is unique.

And the issue of which antibiotic, and what dose, never mind whther one is even indicated, is just a smokescreen MDs use to rip you off, right?

It is not clear to me that there is any benefit for antibiotics being prescription only,

see above. Antibiotic resistance is a serious problem right now, and throwing the doors wide open so anyone can self-medicate willy-nilly would be an utter disaster.

It’s pretty irresponsible as a horse owner to not have some method of emergency treatment for horses, and the vet association must recognize that as there are so many vets who do enable their clients to have such meds on hand.

The Board of Registration is not a “vet association”. They are the state government’s regulatory agency charged with enforcement of the veterinary practice act. And in my state, they have begun to drop the hammer on distribution of prescription medications that are not within the statutory guidelines.

The rules need to change and it is incumbent upon the vets to change the rules that govern their profession.

My guess is that any changes in the statutes will take the form of being more restrictive rather than less.

I think self administering antibiotics will only do one thing - increase the amount of pets with MRSA. It really irks me when vets put cats with urinary issues on clavamox or a similar antibiotic without doing a culture. 90% of the time cats have sterile cystitis and offering antibiotics is cheaper than running a culture.

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7395864]
But you are not a used car salesman, and you are not selling someone a frivolous, unnecessary item. You are a professional, and there is a different mentality and different ethics in being a professional.[/QUOTE]

You’re kidding, right? You have any idea what the mark-up is on the stuff a dealer tacks onto the bill? (I said nothing about used cars). And if people didn’t willingly pay tens of thousands of dollars for “frivolous” cars we’d all be driving dorky little cars and the market for Jags, BMW’s, Mercedes, Corvettes, Lexus, Mustangs, etc. etc. would be non-existent.

And yes, paying $1.00 for a well-watered down cola at McDonald’s is very frivolous.

I accidentally “appreciated” your post, too.

Ghazzu, I really appreciate your posts. They point out so many misconceptions we as animal owners have about veterinarians, in particular lately about how veterinarians as doctors are heavily regulated and must abide by many laws and if you don’t you’re going to lose your license. Meanwhile, pet owners are convinced that you’re just a mean ol’ money grubbing harpy whose goal is to fund your lavish lifestyle at the expense of people who REALLY love animals.

To those of you putting words in my mouth :rolleyes: I do NOT begrudge a veterinarian making money AT ALL. I started this thread because I did not understand the huge disparity in vet costs in relation to location. I understand the house comparison, but that is really the only thing that could apply here, except for the fact that you choose to pay more for the house because you choose to live in the nicer town/neighborhood/street, etc. Apples and oranges if you ask me. Vet care costs shouldn’t be SO disparate based on where you live. How can my pup’s exploratory surgery cost me $750 here where if I had had it done at Tufts it would have been, who knows? A friend suggested I would have added a zero :eek:)

I understand the level of care thing and “you get what you pay for” but I honestly don’t see the difference in care from what my dog received and what she would have received at Tufts that would make the bill increase 10X!

[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;7395829]
Oh yeah, it can easily be $800.

Exam fee $50-100
Pre-anes blood work 65-100
IV catheter, IV fluids $100-200
Pre-anesthetic narcotic for pain management $30
Anesthesia Induction (propofol and intubation)$100
Anesthesia and Monitoring $150
Surgical procedure, including packs/OR $100-350
Post op bandage application $25
Bottle of metacam $75
Antibiotics $40

Which is why it makes me wonder HOW a vet could do it for less unless they take a loss.

It was very good of your vet to do it at $49!! But of all vets, its usually the older cow vets who do not have the overhead costs of a large clinic that can offer these services cheapr. The bottle of propofol alone (the anesthetic agent) for us to order it $40.

I once had a dog spayed for $15. the dog did just fine, and I understood the risks of no IV access, fluids or monitoring. She was a shelter dog who was up for euthanasia. I totally get doing things on the cheap, but also its important to educate clients that the risks CAN be higher (mortality, infection, pain) when certain techniques are not uses. Sometimes though, its all we can do and vets do need to be respectful of that. However, its also not fair to knock places that charge more because they provide a completely different level of care either.[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry, that surgery only required a local, two snips, some stitches, and a bandage. It’s a broken tail on a hunting dog. There is no reason for putting him under to take that broken bit off. Unless you’re paying for that expensive lease space.

Look, I use a damn good horse vet - but I am his client, to answer CoyoteCo’s question- my WALLET is his client. I took a horse to Auburn University with a bad colic case. I was required to decide if he was a surgical candidate or not, BEFORE they did the belly tap. They required that I decide that as non emotionally as possible. I said NO. They tapped him, and saved him, for 486 dollars. I didn’t have 3-4k for surgery then on that horse. So my wallet and my limits are the client. Period.

Right now I have a horse with a tweaked stifle- My WALLET will determine if that vet does anything, not the horse. Last I checked Archie the TWH doesn’t have a phone, or a checking account.

Agree, your budget is your budget. If you say you will only spend X amount, then its up to the vet to determine whether or not they feel they can help you.

But…you said the price difference was for the same thing. Clearly it was not. You did farm method (which is fine…you clearly had financial contstraints and your vet was willing to work with you on that), but you cant compare a local and “two snips” to an actual surgical tail docking. One will cost more because of services offered not because the vet is taking the $750 and putting it in his pocket.

Again, not saying your decision was wrong, but the two services were not the same.

(And FWIW I think $800 is a lot for a tail amputation, but knowing the costs of even admitting a patient into an emergency clinic this price sounds normal. A regular veterinarian during business hours would very likely be doing it for less)

THIS is the typical set up for a tail amputation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzzjH02LGS0

I have known some vets who just use sterile nail clippers and cut through the tail between vertebrae.