Ghazzu -will you marry me?
I’m baking the wedding cake right now.
[QUOTE=moonriverfarm;7391640]
Bottom line - shop around for veterinary care.
I have owned, fostered, rescued, doctored on and buried more animals in my lifetime than the average Joe. I worked for a small animal vet. I know the drill on “necessary bloodwork”, I knew of course my dog had an infection in her mouth, so I declined the $75 bloodwork which was to look for an infection pre-surgery. That was not a bad or uninformed decision.[/QUOTE]
If you think the only thing the pre-op bloodwork is for is to look for infection, you are very mistaken. I can tell you there have been many times that pre-op blood work has saved the lives of patients due to underlying conditions which would not have been immediately discovered WITHOUT the pre-op bloodwork.
If you want to take the risk of not doing the bloodwork that is your choice.
I want to be matron of honor.
Hell of a post, Ghazz. Don’t blame you for giving up.
One of my three new dogs has a worm that requires panacur -whip worms, a kind of round worm. Apparently, the kind that is often given to dogs is ridiculously expensive. The GSDx (who doesn’t show them in his fecal) would cost $70.00 to worm which sounds pretty ridiculous.
So, my new vet is willing to provide me the dosing information for my three dogs, but she does say that the horse panaur doesn’t specifically say that it’s OK for dogs. I’m thinking I should worm my cats with it, too.
So, I’ll get a tube or look in my med box for a current tube and give her the information about the tube so that she can dosage it out, but I thought I’d get comments here, too, if you don’t mind.
When I read elsewhere, there is some disagreement about using horse panacur for dogs. What I read seems to indicate that liquid panacur is OK but that paste pancur may not be. So, I’m still researching.
What is the recommendation of the lepto vaccine for dogs or for cats?
Can I get the lepto vaccine online?
I got my new dogs vaccinate for lepto because there are raccoons around. The initial vaccination was about $15 per dog, but the booster that is required a month or so later was almost $30. Do that sound right? So the booster is twice the cost of the initial vaccine?
I want to worm cats and want to do it the easiest way to do a complete worming. I used to get a nice little yellow paste (pyrantal pamoate, I think) from my vet. It was easy as the cats did not mind the taste, but of course didn’t get tapes. I asked the new vet about it and she didn’t know that particular wormer is.
I have pills I got from the old vet, too, but will have to read to see what they are - I paid a little less attention when she gave me something as I had so much confidence in her. Pills are not easy to give, either.
I’ve tried a couple of other products this week and it is just too hard.
So, what do you use to worm your cat easily? The ideal, of course, is something tasty. I know there is that drop on wormer, but don’t know if it’s safe.
Thanks for all the information. I found my tablets that I had from my old vet. She very recently retired and I got them just before. They are Drontal. Still, I think tablets are hard with my cats, so maybe I’ll try one of the balling guns. I never have tried one of those.
I had some other tape worm pill at one point and that was hard. I did like the yellow paste as they would eat that readily - though it wasn’t effective against tapes.
I did try the Profender a long time ago on some feral cats.
I do have one more question that has bugged me for awhile. For hookworms, the worm treatment is supposed to be repeated after two weeks. Why it that not necessary mentioned with Drontal or certain other wormers?
Sometimes we think we know more than we do. There’s a reason pharmacists and vets have many years of school and internships.
But asking questions on the internet of what to give pets and dosage, etc is not even close to “we should have OTC access to antibiotics” , especially if they were considering giving a paste dewormer to dogs and cats. More especially if one of the dogs is a BC.
Vets go through the same schooling human doctors do, except they’re learning multiple species also.
Vets acquire an average of 6 figure debt the same as human doctors do.
Vets make next to nothing compared to human doctors. It pretty much is a labor of love. Or insanity. Or both. They’re not in it to make money on the scrips.
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7396584]
Sometimes we think we know more than we do. There’s a reason pharmacists and vets have many years of school and internships.
But asking questions on the internet of what to give pets and dosage, etc is not even close to “we should have OTC access to antibiotics” , especially if they were considering giving a paste dewormer to dogs and cats. More especially if one of the dogs is a BC.
Vets go through the same schooling human doctors do, except they’re learning multiple species also.
Vets acquire an average of 6 figure debt the same as human doctors do.
Vets make next to nothing compared to human doctors. It pretty much is a labor of love. Or insanity. Or both. They’re not in it to make money on the scrips.[/QUOTE]
Again, you selectively pick out posts or parts of posts to misrepresent discussions. My VET said that I could use the paste or what I had on hand for horses and that she would look at it to determine the dose. I wasn’t comfortable with the paste so researched it and purchased liquid fenbendzole with her oversight - NOT ivermectin as you seem to think.
When the vet dosed out the wormer, I already knew if she whether or not she was correct. It’s that simple.
Yes, I did think that the yellow paste version of pyrantel pomeate was very easy as the cats willingly ate it. The other tape worm medication, whose name I can rarely spell, is praziquantel, as you should have known. It’s called “Tape Worm Tabs” on the label. That’s not a big deal, either. Tapes, of course, are not a problem in my situation.
You did read that I have one dog that I took because he is not socialized sufficiently for anything really. I may be able to give him vaccinations but he is not ready for a trip to the vet. He got certain vacs at the pound, but not lepto. And, yes, it is curious to me that the booster given a few weeks later costs twice as much as the original shot. It’s still curious to me. You insinuate that I don’t want to pay vet bills - but did you miss that I just paid this clinic almost $1400 for surgery on the dog I just adopted from the pound. It’s about ethics and predictability rather than about a dollar here or there.
And nobody has answered why it is sufficient to give Dontral without the followup dose of pyrantel pomeate two weeks later.
I never said that vets should not “make money on scripts”. I said that the situation here with the poster who had to pay $165 to get her cat’s regular vet to prescribe one Dontral pill was a situation that is not working properly - especially when another poster said that she would have to examine that cat again to prescribe Dontral even if she had just given a complete physical (and missed the fact that it had tapes).
Your going off on the human antibiotics issue which is just a diversion is ridiculous, too. The question is whether a horse owner should be allowed to have something like SMZs or BUTE on hand in an emergency, or a simple Dotnral wormer should require a vet visit when the animal is a regular patient of the clinic.
You all say that a horse owner should not be allowed to do that, while you all have SMZs and BUTE in your own barns. Ghazzu says it’s illegal to allow a patient/client to have such things for an emergency but then says that she can give “refillable” on her prescriptions knowing that the prescription is excessive and will be used for the purpose that she otherwise says is illegal.
So, be rude and insulting and do your little COTH “dogpile” but it doesn’t answer the legitimate questions. I also never said that all human medication should be dispensed without a prescription. I said that I am unconvinced at present that all antibiotics should require a prescription. With all the hostility and vehemence, I have not heard a valid argument supporting prescriptions for animal antibiotics or human antibiotics. The discussion of human prescriptions is more appropriate on another forum, of course. Insulting posts do not put forth actual facts in support of your position.
Tell me, too, do you want the state of the vet medical system to follow in the footsteps of the human medical system? What is the end result for animals? Without animals, what is the future of the veterinary profession?
I would stop using that vet then. Any vet that thinks equine paste dewormer might be okay for dogs and just needs to check dosage is pretty terrifying.
That’s common knowledge. Especially so with certain breeds where it’s deadly.
With antibiotics…if people or pets aren’t diagnosed then how to tell for sure if what they’re treating is bacterial or viral?
Is it the flu or a sinus infection? Is it a bad cold going around or strep throat?
MRSA used to be a hospital issue, now healthy people outside of hospitals are contracting it. And it can be deadly.
These things are bound to happen over time, bacteria can evolve. However it’s been somewhat controlled due to antibiotics being given via prescription. Where a doctor makes sure what you have requires antibiotics and then knows which type you need and for how long.
People having open access to antibiotics will only speed up and increase the antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria. People using the wrong ones for what they assume they may have will increase that. People using them for the wrong amount of time can be disastrous when it comes to bacteria evolving.
Think of antibiotics similar to being given a flu shot. A tiny amount makes the body more immune to it.
Antibiotics given for bacteria in the wrong dosage or the wrong length of time is like giving that bacteria a flu shot. You’re making it immune to that antibiotic. So when that person passes that bacteria on, they’re passing it on resistant to that antibiotic. So the new strain has to be found, recognized, tested, tracked and a new/more powerful antibiotic made for it. Incorrect dosage, type and usage of an antibiotics creates super-bacteria.
So while it took a long time for MRSA to morph, become more deadly, to become immune to antibiotics and then to jump ship from hospitals to the general public…the amount of new super-bacteria and spreading illnesses would be greatly multiplied and harder to handle/track if antibiotics weren’t prescription.
It’s basically common sense. It doesn’t require a medical degree to figure that out. Heaven knows I’m a mental-midget when it comes to medical issues…but this is simple.
Sure I’d love for more pet care to be easier, cheaper and faster. Who wouldn’t? But I also fully understand why it isn’t. There will be some well run and well priced clinics and also some shysters and nickel & dimers. We find what works for each of us. And there is always the travelling vets/clinics for when we’re in a real financial bind.
I was finally able to read this whole thread.
[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7396988]
The question is whether a horse owner should be allowed to have something like SMZs or BUTE on hand in an emergency, or a simple Dotnral wormer should require a vet visit when the animal is a regular patient of the clinic.
You all say that a horse owner should not be allowed to do that, while you all have SMZs and BUTE in your own barns. Ghazzu says it’s illegal to allow a patient/client to have such things for an emergency but then says that she can give “refillable” on her prescriptions knowing that the prescription is excessive and will be used for the purpose that she otherwise says is illegal. [/QUOTE]
Where did you read that the rx is written with excessive refills because the vet knows it will be kept on hand for an emergency purpose other than the presented problem? Please quote that post so I can read it. I must have skimmed over it.
I think COTHers are really lucky to have Ghazzu and Squish answering our questions and participating in such uncomfortable threads as this one. I appreciate them sharing their knowledge. This is a valuable thread. Does Menagerie want to immortalize it?
Coyoteco, your complete lack of both business and medical knowledge is showing and it isn’t pretty. Especially when you talking about antibiotics.
Ghazzu is right on.
Being a veterinarian is not an easy or all that profitable thing to be, and a lot of clients feel they know more than their vet. One veterinarian friend of mine offered, several years ago, to pay my way through vet school if I would go into practice with him when I graduated. I turned it down…no way. I’ve spent too much time watching my vet’s clients do either the totally wrong thing (like dousing a horse in diesel fuel to cure ringworm…that presented some pretty scary symptoms!) or else doing nothing for days and waiting until the horse was circling the drain and ended up being put down…all because they didn’t want to pay for an emergency call charge. Had the horse been seen a week before, it could well have been saved.
That said, I’m a a dog breeder and my small animal vet does make sure I have a limited supply of certain Rx items on hand, since whelping usually happens after clinic hours and the nearest after hours clinic is an hour and a half away, so a three hour round trip…with whelping and newborn puppies, time is critical. He lets me keep a very tiny amount of oxytocin on hand and knows I will use it both appropriately and sparingly, and I also keep lactated Ringer’s on hand in case of a pup needing fluid support. I only get to have these because I’ve proven to be responsible, listen to the vet’s instructions and follow them to the letter, and have had a great working relationship with my vets for over 20 years.
I have absolutely no problem paying for good, practical care. I don’t require a fancy clinic, just clean and neat. And I love that my vets give me options rather than just telling me what they are going to do.
The local emergency/after hours clinic is another story. They know they’re the only option available and they use it. While I was sitting there waiting for my dog’s $3000 c-section, two ladies came in with a Great Dane with a split toenail. I’m thinking to myself, OK, clip that sucker back as far as possible, add a little super glue, and voila! all better. The vet takes the dog in back, comes out a few minutes later with the dog and some pretty vetwrap on the paw, and hands them a bill for $600. THAT is the kind of care that burns me.
Bicostal, reread the thread. Also, where did I say anything negative about SquishtheBunny or Ghazzu. SquishtheBunny is always knowledgeable, professional and polite. As for Ghazzu, she just got a little rude in this thread, but I don’t think that’s her normal posting style. There is nothing valuable in this thread as it was taken off-topic. You want to immortalize your insults? 
Cute.
Misty Blue, you raise some points that could be discussed in the Off-Topic Forum, but I’m not inclined to do that at this point. Had you entered the thread in a somewhat less insulting manner…perhaps. You all pretty much destroyed the meaningful parts of this thread in your attempts trying to derail it. I’m surprised, though, that you are now advising me to fire my vet because someone on the internet says she is wrong. She’s smart enough, and knowledgeable enough. I don’t have a problem with the vets at this office.
Justmyluck, do you ever have anything interesting or informative to say?
I just want to be clear, I wasn’t complaining about not being given an antibiotic for my cat - if he had any kind of condition that required an antibiotic, by all means I will have him at the vet. I will probably grumble at the cost of the medicine, but I would still take him. However, he had a tapeworm, something that I was able to easily diagnose on my own. My vet felt it necessary for me to bring my cat in for an exam, to completely stress him out by the car ride and examination, just to look at the exact same thing I did and make the same diagnosis. She then proceeded to want to add all kinds of “extras” and charge me double for a simple tapeworm pill - that seems excessive to me. It’s a tapeworm for goodness sakes! And, I wasn’t even upset about bringing him in, as I was under the impression from the receptionist that he would need to be tested for it to confirm my “layman’s” diagnosis. But, to then try and guilt me into all kinds of add ons? No thanks!
Thank you to the vets that have chimed in here - it is valuable to read the different perspectives. I don’t mind a vet making a living, I don’t mind them making a good living! They, like human doctors, have invested a LOT of time, let alone money (ie. loans) into their education. I get it, I’m a fellowship coordinator for 5 human internal medicine sub-specialties - I see first hand what these men and women are going through and I don’t begrudge them one dollar of any profit when they are done.
That said, when my equine vet can get me the exact same medicine for half the price, when an animal rescue here in town (so limited funding) can do a spay/shots/painmeds on a cat that shows up for 82% LESS than my usual vet - those tell me that I’m being vastly overcharged. I think one of the fundamental differences is that many of us animal owners do not have health insurance on our animals - so rather than charges being submitted to the health care companies and then fees being reduced based on their fee contracts with the providers (as what happens in human healthcare), we are being charged 100% up front. Well, in my case, 200% for the tape worm tab, and 182% for spay/shots/painmeds.
Maybe I’m not so tolerant of the overcharge because I’ve worked in the human clinical medicine setting in the past, I’ve done the billing and fee slips. I’ve seen what our fee scale contracts were with insurance companies. I’ve processed payments, and applied the fee reductions as instructed. But, most importantly, I’ve been very loyal to my vet, I’ve given them thousands and thousands of dollars in the past 10 years due to various ailments, surgeries and illnesses of now deceased beloved pets. This vet knows me, this vet knows that I’m not the “average Joe Schmoe,” this vet knows that if I say “something is NQR with this kitty” to trust me and look beyond the surface. So, to have this vet try to used-car-salesman me into upgrades and then overcharge me for a tapeworm? It stings. It stings a lot. She then proceeded to tell me that I needed to bring my cat back into the clinic in 2 weeks for a recheck. Are you kidding me? A recheck for TAPEWORM?!
Unfortunately, I had to make an appt today to bring my dog into see her tomorrow morning. As she was cuddling against me, I felt a small lump on her left side - due to past experiences with a beloved dog and lumps (ie. the thousands of dollars in past surgeries), I am not hesitating one bit in having a professional diagnose this. I am, however, very scared of the bill I will get tomorrow.
[QUOTE=cowboymom;7381299]
I don’t want to pay for it when the vet decides he wants a custom fireplace in the waiting room of his brand new clinic. I don’t want to pay for it when he takes every other month off to do mission work in Tibet. I don’t want to pay for the original artwork in the exam rooms. More than happy to pay my part on continued education, good techs, good equipment and what serves the actual patients.[/QUOTE]
So don’t!
Its a free country (so I’m told…I’m in a different one).
Veterinary practice is a business. You, as the business customer may exercise your right to go somewhere else.
Your practice owner, as the owner, may exercise their right to practice, and decorate, as they choose.
[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7396219]
I don’t understand the meaning of this post so cannot respond to its contents.[/QUOTE]
I don’t see that you were required to Coyoteco. It doesn’t appear to be addressed at you?
[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7397458]
Justmyluck, do you ever have anything interesting or informative to say?[/QUOTE]
Oh I have. Your ignorance has made you blind.
Taking this a little off topic, but for those who have questions about emergency care I would like to mention a few things.
Emergency clinics HAVE to have working and up to date diagnostic equipment or they would not be “emergency”. They need at least one xray suite, surgery room equipped with ICU level monitoring equipment, ultrasound, in house blood machines, isolation rooms, triage centers, 10+ IV pumps, syringe pumps, dopamine and emergency drugs, more analgesic/antiseizure drugs than your average GP clinic an be well staffed for the busiest of times.
A General Practice clinic is not required to have this overhead. They can operate in much smaller facilities with no in house blood, less drugs (they can always order), no triage station, ultrasound or heck…even xray in some cases! “Day staff”, who work normal hours can keep busy with vaccine appointments. ER staff is paid to be there whether there is 50 cases or 0 cases.
ER staff are paid MORE because they work Holidays, weekends and overnights. They are also very frequently licenced technicians, where at general practice clinics it CAN be high school co-op students doing your pets care. As ER clinics are not subsidized by the government, the extra costs are often going to be represented in your bill. For example, a general practice routine exam will be around $65, where an ER visit could be $90-120.
ER typically sees very sick patients. Supplies like IV catheters are sometimes used multiple times on one patient (ie. 2 IV lines going for surgery) and often it will take multiple attempts at cathers to feed them securely (think geriatric cat who is dehydrated and has had multiple blood draws over the last year…scarring the veins).
Now yes, it IS wrong for them to take advantage - but its also wrong of clients to assume they should be paying the SAME fee for emergency medicine. Im sorry, but when I come in on my weekend off to MRI your dog who has been seizuring for the past week - I WILL be charging more than if it was during regular hours.
It sucks to have to go to an ER, and we are so lucky as people that we often have our personal ER trips covered by insurance. If we actually looked at the bills for when WE go to an ER, as compared to bills when we go for a check up at our family doctor, you will see a differene.
You pay so that the service can be available. If the charges were exactly the same as a general practice, ER clinics would no longer be available.
1 Like
My tech years were spent in emergency and critical care. Your post is spot on and haveing interests in EMCC medicine I appreciate your post tremendously.
I have two emergency clinics near me. I have used both over the years, but will no longer go to the newer/nicer one. the reason?
I had to sign a form indicating that I either did or did not consent to them performing cpr on my pet should it crash.
The cpr fee? 500.00
For something that requires little to no equipment and minutes of work. I asked, no it didn;t include o2 or electric shocks or anything like that. Plain old hands and bag.
That’s exploitative. That’s wrong.
I never minded the $$$$ bill- I pay a premium for quality emergent care- I get it- but that’s just cold.
The other clinic in town has no such fee, and otherwise similar pricing and care. I voted with my feet.
When your pet codes (stops breathing/heart stops beating) in the ER, we start CPCR if you have indicated that you want that. Your pet is intubated, meaning a tube is placed in the airway by means of a special light source, and your pet is ventilated (by a human, who knows how often, how fast, and with how much pressure to squeeze the bag). IV access is established if it hadn’t been already. ECG leads are attached to observe the heart rhythm (or lack thereof). Chest compressions are started, and are often performed by multiple team members because if you’re doing them correctly, you begin to fatigue after 2-3 minutes. Finally emergency drugs (epinephrine, atropine, vasopressin, naloxone, flumazenil, etc.) are given and your pet’s response is assessed. Running a code properly requires at least 3 people ( don’t forget the person who writes down what is being given/done and when) but it’s smoother if I have 4 people. This is an “all hands on deck” situation.
Yet you think that these extraordinary efforts require “little to no equipment and minutes of work”. The ER you don’t like is actually probably the better one: they are smart enough to ask what you want your pet’s resuscitation status to be, and to let you know what the charges associated with that decision will be, ahead of time. EVERYONE thinks they want CPR, but in my hands it will cost $300-$600 and the odds of your pet leaving the hospital are less than 5%. CPCR is one of the hardest things we do, for many reasons, so of course we have to charge appropriately for it!!!
