So she only learned through videos and the web. Therefore she has never witnessed someone who is actually GOOD at Parelli or other natural horsemanship whack their pushy horse on the butt. Hard. Or did no one ever tall her that the little leather thing on the end of the natural horsemanship training rope is FOR that purpose? :yes:
I hate seeing horses get ruined and people get hurt by this crap.
There was a lovely lady who used to board at our barn. Her horse ADORED her (all the horses did) and she was very much into the whole Natural Horsemanship thing. She was smart enough to realize that the P method was mostly bunk, and she searched out other systems. I think Carolyn Resnick was her favorite. Mostly she did a great job, and it was clear how much joy she got out of just hanging with her horse.
Unfortunately her attempts to be nice and “in communication” with her gelding led to some really bratty behavior on his part, especially on the ground. He’d snatch the leadrope, drag her to a patch of grass, and shove her out of the way at the gate (I think he managed to sprain her ankle like this). I know accidents can happen, but don’t make it easier to get hurt by being too nice!
[QUOTE=Snowflake;7744710]
The biggest problem is that they follow him like a cult. They read his books like scripture and sign up for clinics like they’re going to worship. A real horse person knows that there is no one single method of training that works on every single horse. The problem with the Parelli-ites is that they don’t know any other means. They know enough to be dangerous but not enough to get out of a dangerous situation.[/QUOTE]
I think you hit the nail on the head, Snowflake. I’ll never understand why some adults are so willing to hand over that kind of power to someone…ANYONE. Yes, there are a few famous trainers I like, but I wouldn’t check my brain at the door and follow them off a cliff.
I think it must come from a deep lack of a self-confidence. That’s really the only explanation I can come up with.
That or just just plain crazy. :lol:
Patty Stiller is right. Though let me preface this by saying that I have seen nothing but stupidity from all lay practitioners of Parelli methods. I imagine there are some skilled people practicing it. And I know that there are skilled practitioners of other, less famous “natural horsemanship” methods. To me, all natural horsemanship means is reward and punishment in a timely fashion, with the appropriate amount of force, and then move on.
One guy who got his start locally has a five step system. Note that it’s all the same stuff, but each practitioner comes up with catch words or names for it. Cynics might say that’s a marketing spin, and for the most part they’re probably right. But I find that hearing something described a different way sometimes makes the lightbulb go on. Sally Swift’s Centered Riding was like that for me. But I digress.
Anyway this guy has a scale of 1 to 5, where one is the lightest, slightest ask, and five is the proverbial “come to Jesus” meeting. He used to say that most people’s problem was that they always dithered about in the 2 to 4 range. Never as light as they could be, and never as forceful as they had to be. Just a constant ineffective nag. I found that imagery very interesting and helpful.
OP- are you located in Eastern PA? b/c i think this nutball was at my barn first and we finally got rid of her. One of the insane Parelli horses was a Biter! when she left she had 3 but now i think she has 2 horses that don’t listen.
[QUOTE=Chachie;7745974]
I also don’t allow clicker trained horses here either. It’s one thing to do for fun but like the poster’s experience above, I don’t want to go through something like that so I steer clear of it.[/QUOTE]
What about clicker training as a way of keeping an injured horse from getting bored with stall rest, though? I had a friend who is not usually into NH at all who did some clicker training with her horse while he was on long stall rest because he was going nutty with no exercise and nothing to do mentally. (One of those darn smart ponies.) I think she just did stuff like games of touch your nose to the stick, etc. Nothing that could turn into a really annoying behavior later on. (Like pawing to answer a math problem can lead to the horse pawing a hole in the stall if you aren’t good at how you do it, because horse thinks pawing = treats! I will paw more for more treats!)
Though I don’t know why people get so obsessed with clicker training for everything. My experience is with dogs more so than horses, and omg some people insist that telling a dog “no” ever is going to deeply traumatize it, and that you cannot train anything unless you do it via clicker training. It is very weird. They almost seem to think that the dog won’t learn unless there is a clicker, which is not how learning works. (People/dogs/horses/etc are always learning! Always!)
Clicker training definitely has its uses. I have employed it to teach a young horse to stand for bandaging of a leg wound. No training method should become a religion, though.
I love clicker training. But its not the only tool in my tool box. Its my go to when working my dogs for agility, obedience etc. With horses I have only used it to teach tricks like down.
This was taught mainly with clicker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcP7xqqPIV8
However clicker training horses as a sole method is kinda dangerous IMO. If your dog offers behaviors you don’t want at the moment (and often enthusiastically) at worst its annoying, at best its cute. Your horse does it and it can be down right dangerous. Good stimulus control is needed when clicker training horses, and I find that works with a little supressing punishement if they are getting off track.
I have used the clicker to train a couple of youngsters jumping when they were 3. No idea if its indicative of anything, but they both quickly became horses that ‘found’ the fence when you were riding them. Never refused and were honestly excited to jump.
[QUOTE=Chachie;7745974]
Oh no Sparowette, it wasn’t the buyer who suggested the chute, it was me and my friend, the seller. We were trying to be polite and pacify the new owner, as my friend was afraid she might back out at the last minute. Finally, we had had enough with the NH crap and yes, we cowboyed up, made the chute and got the daggone mare in the dang trailer and on her way.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I guess I wasn’t clear. I was referring to the P person telling you to be more “natural”, thus my rant on natural…
One problem I think, is that the videos people watch almost never show the things that CAN happen with bad handling. I think the movie Buck was better because it had that segment with the palomino stud and his dipstick owner. I don’t know if that gal was a P Person, but it showed the layperson what CAN happen. Most have no clue.
There is a couple at my new barn. They have a nice Arab gelding who they say was given up on because of “problems.” That’s pretty much what I know about the situation, but I’ve seen the gal scream and run when Mr.Arab tried to pull a hoof away 'cause he felt like it. Not being bad, just naughty. He tried it with me (and I’m sure no expert), I stayed with him, told him to behave and he settled right down and held his foot up. She told me she had been watching DVD’s of P, and I tried to steer them over to BB. We’ll see what happens. I hope they at least watch the BB movie, so they can see the difference between a truly bad horse and their slightly naughty boy.
Well… No updates. She hasn’t returned in the past few days and to that I say good riddance to bad rubbish!
This thread has reminded me of one of the best CTJ meetings my horse ever had with a trainer who used the “cowboy up” method for lack of a better term. He is a pushy 16.3 Hanoverian that if you gave him an inch he would take a mile. Sally Buffington worked with him for an hour on the ground. If you know Sally you know she is a tough as nails woman who maybe weighs 100 lbs soaking wet. By the time their CTJ meeting was over the horse had nearly learned English and you could tell he was saying “Yes ma’am” and “No ma’am” in his head to her!
Had anyone ever come after him with a carrot stick I could totally see him grabbing it out of their hands with his teeth and whopping them with it!
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7747137]
No training method should become a religion, though.[/QUOTE]
One of the sanest things ever written about horse training. Well put!
It also reminded me of a particularly funny CTJ moment. I was teaching a student and she needed a little help with her big 3yo. I handed her a dressage whip. "She looked at it and said, “(horse’s name) meet Jesus” followed immediately with an appropriate get your ass in gear swat on his ass. From then on the dressage whip was always referred to as Jesus.
I don’t understand how I have never met one of these people. Am I living under a rock? Do I consider this a blessing?
Maybe, and definitely Yes.
One of the best reads of all times, is this posting.
I mistakenly bought a Pep trained Appy mare several years ago. I bought with my heart instead of my head and regretted it. Even though I love Appies the bestest, she has the glory of being the worst horse I’ve ever owned. She is the reason why I avoid any horse with Pep training or thoughts. I came across some old vids of her the other day and, talk about red flags all over the place!! Truly, couldn’t wait till she went down the road. It was kind of sad, she was bred in the blue but her brain was totally fried.
Oh, and the one time I boarded a horse, the above mentioned Appy mare, there were some Peps in there and I was appalled at how the horses ran the show. But I was the mean one because I insisted my mare toe the line, while theirs ran all over them. The ladies never did clue in that they were the problem either.
[QUOTE=goneriding24;7748286]
One of the best reads of all times, is this posting.
I mistakenly bought a Pep trained Appy mare several years ago. I bought with my heart instead of my head and regretted it. Even though I love Appies the bestest, she has the glory of being the worst horse I’ve ever owned. She is the reason why I avoid any horse with Pep training or thoughts. I came across some old vids of her the other day and, talk about red flags all over the place!! Truly, couldn’t wait till she went down the road. It was kind of sad, she was bred in the blue but her brain was totally fried.[/QUOTE]
I have to think that Appies are the WORST candidates for the Pepperoni method. I know my first two Appies (heavily Foundation bred), would have ignored the Peps, or schooled THEM. You didn’t mess with my 2nd App who was thoroughly reliable (adjusted his performance to the rider’s abilities), but you did not push him around or make him do piddly, useless things. And my last two Appies - One was racebred (gentlest quietest horse I’ve ever owned) and the present a Foundation App/Arab cross, would probably freak at that nonsense - which may have been what happened with the horse you’re referring to. Still, while I wouldn’t subject my horse to it, it would be morbidly interesting to see what would happen if PP tried his tricks on my 16.2 h.h. half-Arab Appy! It ain’t the same as messing with a nice little QH!
It’s a little sad that all these people want is to feel safe around their horse and have fun. So often this Natural Horsemanship work turns perfectly nice horses into problem animals if not out right dangerous. No one is happy. Not the people, not the horses and certainly not the professionals who must deal with them. Well, maybe the gurus cashing the checks are happy.
If they want a safe program they shouldn’t look to wackos that jump picnic tables with no helmets waving orange sticks in the air. LOL Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah’s couch… remember that one?
These people think their Magical Gypsy Vanner will be wonderful with all this wonderful training.
Batshit nuts and dangerous
Horses that loose respect for your personal space are the most dangerous ones. Teaching them to come into your personal space for comfort can have negative repercussions.
Most of the good horsemen are distancing themselves from the “natural” word.
