Cremello warmblood stallion candidate

Color experts - is this colt cremello and if so, where does he get his coloring?

I know he got a copy of cream from each parent, but I’m curious to know where in his pedigree those genes came from - esp. since dilutes are not looked on with much favor by the Verbands.…html

There are far better color experts out there, but to me it seems that the white comes exclusively from the dam side. Frieda Gold doesn’t have a picture on allbreedpedigree, but her sister O Wie Weiss does, and she seems to be mostly white. Her description says dominant white (W16) and Pseudo Sabino Roan. Their dam, Celine, is listed as a white mare.

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further internet investigation reveals:

Dominant White

Dominant White is sometimes alternatively called White or White Spotted/Spotting. As of right now there are 21 identified mutated versions of Dominant White and more assumed to be discovered. Currently there are only a few mutations that have tests publicly available. Dominant White horses are can be seen with a large range of phenotypes, fitting due to there being 21 different mutations! Some horses have the pigment completely inhibited, making the horse a Max White Dominant White Pinto. While others will have patterns that people are more apt to call Sabino. Dominant White horses are usually born with dark eyes, this has led to past names including the Dark Eyed Whites. Rarely Dominant White horses have blue eyes.

Dominant White Genetics

The Dominant White mutations are found at the KIT locus. Dominant White is listed as W then the number in a genetic code, W1 is Dominant White 1 for example. Many of the Dominant White mutations are dominant, however in the case of W20, it behaves true to being incomplete dominant. It is believed that most Dominant Whites are homozygous lethal. Homozygous lethal Dominant White horses are not born, but rather they are naturally aborted early in the pregnancy. W20 is proven not to be homozygous lethal.

The Dominant White Mutations

W16 is seen in Oldenburgers who are nearly completely white. The mutation is credited to have started in the horse O’ Wie Weiss born in 2009?.

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Yes, he’s registered as Born White, which is not cremello totally different genes, and the difference would be obvious IRL.


I’m fascinated with his dark eyes! I find him absolutely breathtaking!

there is a cremello colt at the same sale. You can see the differences!

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Fashion counts: dilutes now have commercial value!

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Thanks for all the info. A friend is curious about the colt and sent me the link to the photos but I hadn’t read the catalog description so didn’t know he is actually white. What coat colors is a horse like that likely to throw? Is heavy chrome or pinto a possibility (or even probability)?

I also hadn’t looked through the rest of the catalog so didn’t know about the other colt. Looks like the cream genes came from Czech WB in the damline of both parents, although his sire also has Mascarpone in the 3rd generation.

My friend is quite fascinated by the white colt because of his dark eyes!

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Cremello (which the original horse is not) is popular for some because of the double dilute. You can guarantee a palomino baby by breeding to a chestnut mare.

I dont know about the genetics of the white horse, except that pinto is a whole different set of genes, so he wont contribute to that.

An all-white horse is just 1 entire white spot. He’s still a bay/black/chestnut/whatever, but you’d need DNA testing to know what he is, unless the parents make it obvious (ie if both are chestnut, then he’s chestnut, if both are homozygous for black and are black, then he’s black).

Given that the small number of W16 horses are all or mostly white, I’d expect the same from any offspring if they inherit that gene

Not all W genes behave that way though. Some produce normal white markings, like W20 which is thought to be, or boost, the “sabino” gene which isn’t, and responsible for a great many normal leg and face white. W5 (Puchilingui, TB line) likes to produce a lot of body roaning but also just very splotchy/jagged body markings. W10 is common in the QH, and can range from normal white to lots of wild body white.

So it all depends on which W you are talking about, in terms of what to expect. Some produce “normal” white markings, some are normal until homozygous (when they produce dramatic to all white). Some produce all white when present, like this W16 appears to, and like the W2 (White Beauty/Patchen Beauty line), and W14 which has produced the all-white line of Japanese racehorses starting with Shirayukihime


Ah, I thought I saw somewhere that the Dominant White mutations can also be responsible for sabino. And that sabinos sometimes throw pinto.

I’m not up on color genetics though other than the basics.

Thanks. Horse Telex lists his sire as bay with a brown sire and chestnut dam. His dam is chestnut from a brown sire and chestnut dam. So I guess it is up in the air as to what his base color is.

Interestingly, his sire’s damline goes back to a mare called Chin Chin who is listed as brown, but she had two chestnut parents. Horse Telex reports that Chin Chin had eight foals, all by the same chestnut sire (Zeus). All were chestnut except for the last one (Chin Chin). I’m guessing she was bred to two different stallions and her owner assumed the foal was by Zeus. And that she was born before much was known about the basics of color inheritance. It was also before the days of parentage verification via DNA analysis.

(Idle early morning musings…)

There is 1 known and testable Sabino, and that’s Sabino1 (the 1 is because they have assumed there may be others).

White (formally Dominant White) and SB1 are both on the KIT allele, which is pretty unstable and mutates a lot. Like…a lot LOL Tobiano is KIT, Roan is KIT (well, really, KIT-adjacent but might as well be KIT), and all the W 1-30+ are KIT. And more W mutations pop up on a regular basis.

So it’s KIT that is responsible for SB1 and White. But, W20 produces white markings that have long been called “sabino”, which is what you may be thinking of.

So the sire is Ee (E is what makes him bay-based, e came from his ee chestnut dam), and the dam is ee (chestnut). So Ee x ee means 50% chance of a bay-based color, 50% chance being chestnut

2 chestnuts (ee) can’t produce brown, so yes, either Chin Chin was a liver chestnut incorrectly called brown, of the sire listed isn’t the actual sire.


LOL, I was getting my nails done this morning and still musing about this and it suddenly hit me that Chin Chin may have been liver. It would be interesting to see a pic of her.

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E is not what makes him bay. E_A_ (A being dominant agouti which will make points and mane and tail black, the rest of the body red) would make him bay. E would make him black combined with aa (recessive agouti which has no effect on black pigment).

Oh, and how do you know you’re totally a horse person?

EEAA is the original genotype. e and a are mutations. No, E alone doesn’t make him bay, but he IS bay, and I was pointing out that the E, as opposed to the e, is what is required to make him bay.

Meaning, he has to have at least 1 E. And then, he also has to have 1 e since one parent is chestnut. I apparently did a poor job of that.