Cross Country Equitation - new spinoff sport?

[mvp]

@FitToBeTied

XC is about effective riding not posing over fences like they do in the hunter world.

Hold up! Equitation in hunter world isn’t about posing over fences either. Not sure? Build one of the Medal courses (which they used to publish, measurements and all) and see how easy that is, or if you think just posing over fences is all you’d need to do to get around.

IMO, we could make eventing safer and more pleasant for the horses if we valued technique over git-r-done on the cross country course. When I was a kid, a rare clinic with Jimmy Wofford in NorCal where I lived opened my eyes to this. He praised the “show ring basics” in the smooth-riding kids in that clinic. And I have to say that good equitation basics kept me safe when I was eventing and field hunting.

Equitation has always been intended to make better horsemen of riders.

[fivestrideline]

@mvp

Hold up! Equitation in hunter world isn’t about posing over fences either.

Yep I saw that comment and elected to ignore it - but everything you said is spot on. “Actual” equitation (aka not the poor riding that gasp! doesn’t actually win equitation classes) is just effective riding. When your default position is a secure one, you’re more likely to survive XC.

I see highlight reels of people scraping through XC and barely surviving - that’s not fun or something to praise IMO. The ones that skip through and make it all look easy (Jung, for example), have some really good positions that wouldn’t look out of place in the Eq ring.

[dmveventer]

This exactly. My concern with a cross-country-only sport is that it will reward the people who think dressage and stadium are just boring things to get through to get to the fun stuff, rather than critical foundations of the sport. If you don’t spend the time on dressage you have no business going cross country (I’m not talking about getting good dressage scores, just focusing on the underlying training). I see so many people who make it around cross-country by the grace of a saintly horse and some luck. I think this new sport is likely to attract those who don’t see the value in the well-rounded training eventing demands.

[CCEA]

The reason for using the term Equitation.

Definition: the act or art of riding on horseback.

CCE uses this definition of the word Equitation, not an interpretation shared by certain groups. Cross country RIDING could just as easily be interpreted as riding bicycles, ATVs, or sleds, and Cross Country Equestrian, is just odd, so we decided to go with Equitation.

Please read this next part with the intended humor:

We knew using the word Equitation may be a wrinkle for a while before it’s understood in the correct context. But it seemed better to use that term rather than others… “Cross country galloping and jumping obstacles on horse back, and not being subjectively judged, but that does require an appropriate level of training, including flatwork” got nixed at a meeting we had about the name of this new sport.

The sport has be designed around horsemanship rather than a singular attribute of the horse such as incredible movement or jumping scope. Flatwork / dressage training to develop a horses that is adjustable, responsive, controlled, balanced and agile is integral to CCE.

Partnership is important too - and that takes being connected with your horse over time.

There is more information on our website that explains CCE further. Workshops introduce, explain and demonstrate CCE to competitors, organizers and officials. Organizers should contact us directly to get further details. Riders should approach their local organizers to indicate their interest in having them hold a workshop.

[dmveventer]

I’ve been on your website, and I didn’t see anything that changes my concerns. Good riding is inherently subjective. Objective judging by definition leaves plenty of room for dangerous riding as long as you get around, and the “challenge” obstacles incentivize people to tackle jumps they aren’t ready for. I also didn’t see any mechanism for disqualifying riders on course, only that two refusals at one obstacle would require a mandatory pass of that jump. I don’t see anything in the rules or scoring to ensure “appropriate levels of training,” and unfortunately not everyone will put in the work on their own.

I think the goals you guys have are great and I appreciate that you’re trying to innovate and give people options to keep equestrian sports in general going strong. But cross-country riding is dangerous, and there’s a reason eventing has three phases. I think this will be valuable for people looking to cross-train or add cross-country experience in a (hopefully) cheaper venue than a full horse trials. As an independent sport I just think it’s missing some key components.

[CCEA]

We’re deliberately releasing rules in a delayed fashion so that they build upon each other and can be understood in context. This should minimize confusion and reduce misinterpretations of the rules. You are correct that there is nothing published yet about “disqualifying riders”, or “ensuring levels of training” - these components are there, just not published yet. Your immediate concern relating to dangerous, or otherwise “bad” riding is on point and a widely held opinion that we share. So we built the sport around improving knowledge, skill, understanding and horse-centric priorities. It is at the same time, a place where the horse and rider can develop these skillsets, and a sport with a clear competitive goal. Success in latter relying on the former.

We will release the first set of basic rules that are required for the first workshop competitions that are scheduled for this month. They will be under a “Reference” tab on the website soon and will include the rationale behind certain rules.

[mvp]

@dmveventer

This exactly. My concern with a cross-country-only sport is that it will reward the people who think dressage and stadium are just boring things to get through to get to the fun stuff, rather than critical foundations of the sport. If you don’t spend the time on dressage you have no business going cross country (I’m not talking about getting good dressage scores, just focusing on the underlying training). I see so many people who make it around cross-country by the grace of a saintly horse and some luck. I think this new sport is likely to attract those who don’t see the value in the well-rounded training eventing demands.

For as long as I have been around eventers (several decades now) I have heard someone, in some point in the conversation, deprecate the dressage section of the event or their “version” of a dressage test. I have not seen eventers worry that their horses don’t have a lead change to make the stadium work (even though Hunter World created horses who will change leads automatically (which did not exist when I was a kid)) while ragging on the hunters.

My point is not to pick on eventers, rather, it is to point out that there is a lot of talk out there about de-valuing technique. I’m sure that the very best in the sport aren’t practicing this. But with so many preaching it, how could we expect anyone to see the value in it? I wouldn’t care, except that I don’t think horses want to be ridden out of balance or roughly.

But! I remember being taught how to ride out-of-the-ring obstacles like ditches and down banks. Those things required specific equitation skills and boy-howdy they contributed to my riding better in the ring, too.

[dmveventer]

There are bad eventers out there just like there are bad hunter/eq riders. The fact remains that good eventing is based in effective riding in all three phases, and knowing how to adjust your technique and form between the three. Every eventing coach I’ve worked with has emphasized developing a correct, functional position - not posing over fences, but a dynamic way of riding that’s balanced, safe, and helps the horse do its job. There are plenty of eventers who complain about the dressage phase but still understand and value the technique. There is, unfortunately, a smaller number of riders who legitimately don’t care about the fundamentals, and I worry those people will be all over a sport that doesn’t hold them accountable for it.

[Long_Time_Lurker]

@dmveventer

There is, unfortunately, a smaller number of riders who legitimately don’t care about the fundamentals, and I worry those people will be all over a sport that doesn’t hold them accountable for it.

THIS is the what people are concerned about with this new kind of competition. Even if the fundamentals will ACTUALLY be important, any perception that you(g) can skip the hard-but-less-exciting stuff might attract those that would rather not work on fundamentals. If it is true that the fundamentals will ACTUALLY be important it would be wise for your group (whoever you are) to emphasize this in your roll out. i.e. here’s how it will get you points if you can rate your horse’s pace etc.

[Rackonteur]

@CCEA

The sport has be designed around horsemanship

Why not call it Equestrian Cross Country?

[ndirish07]

This is also my experience with hunting. Depending on the territory, you might want a TB, but I haven’t ever heard of a hunt saying “you can’t bring this breed of horse.” Whether it behaves in the hunt field is otherwise temperamentally suitable is another question. I hunt a giant sherman tank of a draft cross in first field/second field depending on the territory. We’re a member of a hunt and have guest hunted all over with probably 10 different packs and it’s never been an issue that he’s a thicc boi.

[Salty]

I don’t quite understand what you mean about automatic changes on course not existing when you were a kid, because I’ve had two horses of my own, and have ridden several others, who did a clean change in the corners without being taught and I’m older than dirt. I know that they were natural automatic changes because I started these horses.

I think this new sport sounds fun, and it seems like borrowing trouble to assume it will be filled with ignorant, wild-riding yahoos, but maybe I’m wrong. I would use it as a schooling opportunity if there was one near me.

[mvp]

@Salty

I don’t quite understand what you mean about automatic changes on course not existing when you were a kid, because I’ve had two horses of my own, and have ridden several others, who did a clean change in the corners without being taught and I’m older than dirt. I know that they were natural automatic changes because I started these horses.

I think this new sport sounds fun, and it seems like borrowing trouble to assume it will be filled with ignorant, wild-riding yahoos, but maybe I’m wrong. I would use it as a schooling opportunity if there was one near me.

Maybe I was riding trash in trashy Northern California, but when I was a kid on TBs, you usually had to ask for the change and not all horses were equally good at them. Today, ponies have them. Of course my part of the country didn’t have the fancy ponies that looked like scaled-down TBs that the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic has always had.

I think you did misunderstand me on the second point. I don’t think “yahoos” will flock to XC Eq. Rather, I think it’s part of the accepted way to talking in Eventing Land to dismiss dressage as something to be endured in order to get to the fun stuff, namely, cross country.

[fivestrideline]

@mvp

I think it’s part of the accepted way to talking in Eventing Land to dismiss dressage as something to be endured in order to get to the fun stuff, namely, cross country.

I politely disagree - this is a very old way of thinking that has gone by the wayside for most of the discipline. I’d agree with you wholeheartedly 30+ years ago, and pre short format.

Now, dressage is the placing determinant. You don’t do well in eventing by scraping by and “enduring” dressage. It’s most of what you’ll be working on day in and day out! The only people who do more dressage than eventers are straight dressage people, IME.

I find that people who dislike dressage end up foxhunting or trying jumpers (before realizing that jumpers do a ton of flatwork too ). That said, there’s a lot of crazies at the “lower levels” of ANY sport, but I really don’t think this XC Eq thing is going to attract any statistically significant percentage of them.

[Willesdon]

Attitudes towards Dressage have definitely changed, not least because the increasingly technical fences as one moves up the levels. A modern Event horse has to be adjustable and balanced and the rider has to comprehend how their own balance influenced the movement of the horse - just what dressage can teach.

[enjoytheride]

@fivestrideline

I politely disagree - this is a very old way of thinking that has gone by the wayside for most of the discipline. I’d agree with you wholeheartedly 30+ years ago, and pre short format.

Now, dressage is the placing determinant. You don’t do well in eventing by scraping by and “enduring” dressage. It’s most of what you’ll be working on day in and day out! The only people who do more dressage than eventers are straight dressage people, IME.

I find that people who dislike dressage end up foxhunting or trying jumpers (before realizing that jumpers do a ton of flatwork too ). That said, there’s a lot of crazies at the “lower levels” of ANY sport, but I really don’t think this XC Eq thing is going to attract any statistically significant percentage of them.

Agree, at the lower levels at least (Novice and below) It’s not uncommon to finish on your dressage score.

I’m excited about the spinoff sport because a full event is expensive and there aren’t a lot of places to school so getting experience in something besides a schooling environment is necessary

[FjordBCRF]

@beowulf

a Fjord ( ),

There are a couple Instagram accounts I follow that do hunting with their fjords!! I love the videos, they certainly do stand out

[FitToBeTied]

@fivestrideline

I find that people who dislike dressage end up foxhunting or trying jumpers (before realizing that jumpers do a ton of flatwork too ).

Another misconception perpetuated. In both hunts that I belong to, we have eventers, straight dressage riders and jumpers. One of our field masters is working on her musical cur and qualified for regionals. At one of the hunts, there are five us who train with the same dressage trainer. The idea that foxhunters don’t do lessons is pretty old and not really valid anymore.

There are still some old timers like that but they are few and far between.

[fivestrideline]

I agree - I’m just stating that people who dislike or “suffer through” dressage often foray into places they believe there won’t be a requirement for it.

I’ve seen the aftermath of such a rider, and they don’t last long on the hunts either. Typically because the person who doesn’t get any value out of dressage also doesn’t understand how to properly condition a horse. Foxhunting is no joke.

[Xanthoria]

Or a Hunter Trial which is optimum time + penalties

What is a Hunter Trial and What are the Rules?

Here on the west coast we used to have hunter paces that involved an xc course and optimum time only. No penalties and the classes were solo it pairs, with only one horse having to jump. I miss those!