Cueing the canter with spurs

[skydy]

@Edre

Which leads me to my point: it sounds like you have multiple issues that you’re trying to work on all at the same time. This could be a situation where you need to break them down more. Work on your canter aids without spurs. Work on your mare’s responsiveness to the leg with spurs. You do not have to do all of these things at once. It may be you spend a few weeks just focusing on one, then follow up with the other. It may look like you deciding that hey, you don’t need to canter on two or three rides a week while you wear spurs, then the other rides will be more of a transition/seat work focus.

(Edit for clarification: Spurs aren’t a necessary component in transitional work. Spurs are not for forward. Whips are for forward, spurs are for lateral give. So spurs don’t really have any place in transitions, at least as I was taught.)

This is very good advice Edre. I think you have hit the nail on the head.

OP If your anatomy is making it difficult for you to ask for a canter without spurring your horse unintentionally, then absolutely don’t wear spurs when schooling the canter , it’s not fair to your horse and it’s causing difficulties for you.

Use your spurs for what works and remove them while you learn how to ask for the canter (as a dressage rider, not a H/J rider). As Edre said you won’t need spurs for that.

Have fun (and be patient).

[CFFarm]

Before you can get any good transitions in any gait your horse needs to understand and execute a half halt. The shift of his weight back to the hindquarters will set him up to strike off correctly and in balance as well as telling him to prepare for a change. Work on that first.

[merrygoround]

It does sound as though your problem is not how to ask for canter while wearing spurs, but riding a horse that in the first place is not forward to the leg. Forward to the leg at all gaits. Forward to the leg at turn on the forehand. If you can not get this without spurs, it does not qualify you to wear spurs. Moving away from the drawn back leg is a basic horse ed move. It should not require spurs although it may take a judicious tap with a whip. The operative words being judicious and tap.

Spurs are for finesse, they are not blunt force instruments.

[tinah]

@thecolorcoal

Wonderful visualization, Tinah! I can actually see in my mind’s eye what that should look like. Is there any compromise with your cue strength using spurs? Too little doesn’t get the thing with a reaction vs. too much gets a negative reaction? I feel like i’m in absolutes with my horse. It’s either not enough or too much all the time.

the thing with spurs, is that with using them you need to remember that they are used to enforce a sideways, bend through the barrel command. Your leg needs to be educated enough to where you use part of your leg for leg, then if that is ignored, you rotate your foot to lay your spur into your horse, not jab.

it’s like forward. You’ll hear people say “leg, more leg, kick, tickle, little whack, whack!”. . . . That’s bs. Decide how much leg you want your horse to move off, apply leg, and if the forward response isn’t immediate, WHACK! but you’ve got to be quick, and not catch your horse in the mouth, and allow the forward to happen. You’re going to get an extreme reaction, especially out of a horse that’s been taught "now, I’m going to ask 50 times, so you can ignore the first 48, okay?"just ride it out, and them gather everything back up and go on.

spurs are the same thing. If a horse ignores a leg/hip /weight shift, you roll your spur into them. They get one chance, then are corrected. It’s just like ground work, only on the horse’s back.

[caper]

@merrygoround

THIS!

Spurs are for finesse, they are not blunt force instruments.

[thecolorcoal]

But I repeat that I am not using my spurs as forceful instruments. What Tinah posted is exactly what I am trying to achieve: I don’t want to do the “ask, insist, demand” with my horse. I’d like to skip to “demand” because I always want to whisper. I don’t want my aids to get stronger and stronger because that usually illicit an angry reaction from my horse and rightfully so. I wouldn’t like to be screamed at if I had been ignoring you so easily, I’d get miffed too. But if someone asks me nicely, and I refuse, and they slam their hands on the desk and roar at me (a tap or flick with the whip) immediately after I will never ignore them again. I’m trying to put myself into my horse’s shoes. Then I can whisper the entire ride and no force is required.

I do NOT use my spurs to dig into my horse. Not only is that against my principals but it is against my horse’s wishes and I WILL get bucked off. and it will not be just one buck. It will be a series of rodeo broncs to launch me because of how rude I was to her and I lost the privilege to be on her back. Oh, mares. She always has a valid point and I must respect her and that does not include jabbing her with the spurs.

Obviously I am getting my leg position wrong if every time i apply leg I am also applying spur. I don’t think they hand and hand should go together, or else why use spurs for “as needed” if you’re going to spur every single time you close your leg? Ok, well, that means there’s something wrong with the way I am riding and I must figure it out and fix it. Trying to fix my hunter position is harder than I thought. And yes, in that discipline it is widely accepted to use spurs as your “go” aids, not that I ever needed to do this as my old trainer never let us use spurs as a crutch for a weak leg.

Should I just remove the spurs when asking for a canter? But then I have to get on and off and on and off… and THANK YOU @atr, that was an incredibly detailed post! I really appreciate that!

I don’t mean to get defensive, I just want to make crystal clear what I am doing in the saddle to maximize the attempts to correct this. I might have to put the spurs away and use my dressage whip (sorry maresy…) if this continues, because I agree that if I can’t get this then I should save it for a later date in my riding. They did help A LOT with bending, though… I’m disappointed.

[Edre]

You can have productive rides without ever broaching the canter issue. I advise you consider the possibility that if you want to continue wearing/working in spurs, then perhaps you don’t canter on those days until you sort out your transitions. A horse doesn’t need to canter to be working hard, have a productive ride, or be learning things. Not cantering a few days out of every week’s set of rides will hurt no one (and in fact, as you work on your transitions, will likely benefit as you won’t run the risk of accidentally catching her).

Ultimately, it seems like you have too many moving parts happening. The spurs question, your equitation, her responsiveness to aids - there are so many things that it is going to be hard to work on every single thing every ride, every moment you’re riding. Because there’s the thing: when you are wearing spurs, if you make a mistake, you are punishing your horse. You do not mean to, but you are. So then you’re careful to not make mistakes - which inherently is good, but riders often ride less effectively/more defensively/lose proper positioning when they’re struggling with these issues.

If the original question of this thread is “How to cue for the canter when wearing spurs” my response is: “The way you cue for a canter any time.”

However, your cue for the canter is poor - you’ve mentioned you struggle with it. This is completely unrelated to spurs. And with this information, it means that perhaps you shouldn’t be wearing spurs while you work on ironing out your transitions into the canter.

Once those are working better for you and your mare you can revisit the idea of wearing spurs 24/7, but until then I would suggest picking and choosing which days you wear them, and narrow your focus to what you’re working on accordingly.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

Don’t feel disappointed, try to look at it as an opportunity to hone your skills!

From what you have written, it seems like your mare does not respect your leg as a cue for forward. If this is the case and I was in your shoes, I would take off the spurs, grab my dressage whip, and deal with this first. Dealing with your mare ignoring your leg is most likely not going to be fun. I try to be very empathetic to the horses I ride to, but your mare is blowing you off. I would start by applying a light leg aid, if she ignored me, tap, taP, tAP, TAP, whack, whacK, whaCK, whACK, wHACK, WHACK with increasing intensity until she hops forward (should be on a fairly loose rein so you don’t catch her in the mouth when she hops forward, may want a bucking strap on your saddle…). Good mare! And remove all aids when she hops forward. Give her a minute or two or three walking around on a loose rein to think this over and do it again, hopefully she figures out that just going is a lot easier than ignoring you.

I have a very opinionated mare too and feel your pain. My trainer did the first and second ride of getting my mare was responsive to the leg, because my mare was NOT happy about it and I wasn’t sure if I could stay on. It took months for my mare to accept this was the new normal, and some rides she needs a reminder or two. I am so glad we addressed this issue.

I hope you get this figured out!

[Gloria]

@Scribbler

I’m confused. OP says she is qualified to use spurs. Then she says she is over using them, nagging, being too aburpt etc.

In that case I’d say OP maybe isn’t quite qualified to use them yet and really has to work on leg control.

I think what she is saying is, she had sufficient control in her seat that she is not banging into the horse’s sides with spurs uncontrollable. Based on the questions she asked, I believe her that she is qualified to wear spurs.

What she has trouble with, is the finesse of cuing a horse. She gives too strong a canter cue, which is quite different from jabbing the horse’ side from unstable seat. In this case, I think she might as well wearing that spur, because that horse will give her a ton more feedback, lol. That horse will teach her to brush with the spur, instead of jab with the spur. The horse might even flip her a finger, or if he is generous enough that day, give her a haunches-in instead of a canter depart. That is what my precious boy will do to me. Well, he might also give me a buck or two just to show me his displeasure.

OP, learn to just bring your outside leg back, and brush against his side, at the same time engage your inside core and lift your inside seat bone. The hardest part for you will be, to trust that a tiny little bittie cue is enough to get a result. We all get into trouble when we try harder, and harder, and make our live much harder than necessary.

[Dutchmare433]

If you are using your spur every time you use your leg, you need to take the spurs off and work on your leg position first. It takes a while to switch from hunt seat, where your toes turn out, to a longer dressage leg, with feet parallel to the horse. You have to change the way your leg hangs from your hip in the saddle. It takes time to make that transition, and more time for it to become ingrained muscle memory.

But again, your intention doesn’t make any difference to your horse, your actions are what matter. Everyone understands that you’re trying to be nice to your horse. Just because you aren’t digging your spurs into her doesn’t mean the spurs are being used correctly.

[LarkspurCO]

@TheHotSensitiveType

Don’t feel disappointed, try to look at it as an opportunity to hone your skills!

From what you have written, it seems like your mare does not respect your leg as a cue for forward. If this is the case and I was in your shoes, I would take off the spurs, grab my dressage whip, and deal with this first. Dealing with your mare ignoring your leg is most likely not going to be fun. I try to be very empathetic to the horses I ride to, but your mare is blowing you off.

Agree that I wouldn’t go to the spur as a crutch to this training hole (holes are meant to be filled so take that as a positive :)).

But in reality, the horse is doing exactly what the rider has trained her to do. She has learned to ignore the “noise” of the leg that’s been shouting at her. She is not intentionally disobeying the aid. The solution is still the same, but I think it helps to remember this from the horse’s perspective.

The vast majority of the time when a horse doesn’t obey an aid, it’s because he either doesn’t understand what you’re asking or isn’t physically prepared to do it. When we get into the mindset of thinking thoughts like “she’s blowing me off” that can start to bring frustration and other unproductive emotions into the ride. Then all of a sudden you find yourself in an argument with your horse, rather than teaching your horse what you want him to do.

I think most everyone has been lulled into the sin of overusing the leg, especially in dressage where we use the leg for so many different things (now bend here, now bend there, now move your haunches over, now move your shoulders around, etc.). It’s especially hard for us ammies who ride the same horse all the time to fall into these habits and need to sharpen up the leg aids from time to time. I’ve spent the week working on this with my horse. After three rides focusing on this he is already 90 percent better. He’s also much straighter and the transitions are smooth and easy, so apparently I was doing something weird with my legs or hips and making him crooked.

[Ganesha]

@thecolorcoal

With my leg, though, I have to kick and I don’t want to do that. We’ve used the whip before but the sharp sting bothers her. I still carry one, and I am trying to use that as my forward correction instead of my spur…

Anyway, I have always had a strong canter cue. riding horses that were hard to canter really built up those calf muscles and I tend to over-cue the canter a lot. The other day I got a tail swish and a kick-out when I tried to cue my horse for canter (my bad), and so instead of getting a nice upwards transition I choked and ran her into it instead because I was afraid of spurring her.

Does anyone have advice on how to ask for the canter when you are wearing spurs?

To me, there is nothing so wonderful as a horse who reliably, lightly steps into a nice canter the moment you ask. Part of it is training, part of it is your timing, part of it is your position. I think you really want to get this down without spurs first. Get it nice without spurs, then add them for refinement.

I think you mentioned elsewhere you are moving up to First Level. I don’t think there’s any rush or need to add spurs at this point. Getting the canter should not take a ton of mental planning and complex aids each time. Or require spurs. You do need to learn to feel the moment to ask, figure out which aids you’ll use then be consistent.

Also, you should be able to ride her with you legs in neutral contact with her side (this is in response to your comment that “I must be aware of my leg at all times because we are teaching her contact with the leg is a deliberate request to do something”). It isn’t about legs off vs legs on. Your legs should be resting against her according to her shape and your build. It is the change in your leg (a squeeze or tap or contraction) that she needs to react to.

[thecolorcoal]

@Ganesha , that’s a great idea. I’m going to take the spurs off my boots and work on what I can without them. I think we may be too “in the beginning” to be working with spurs. Spurs are a very normal and needed piece of equipment in my HJ world so I’m adjusting to the idea that they are not the gas pedal other disciplines make them out to be. Thank you very much for your response.

[Mukluk]

@Sunsets

Sure. You can’t use voice commands in a test, but nothing at all wrong with a cue when schooling. Most riders do it.

You can use voice commands in a test, providing the judge can’t hear it.

[thecolorcoal]

@Mukluk, that’s what my trainer suggested too. We had a conversation about spurs. She rides my horse twice a week (mare is VERY good for her). She has suggested that I do use them, along with a whip, in order to help the forward aids. She would like the horse not to be spur-trained, of course, as my mare is very disliking of the whip and that’s all we probably need. She also suggested a different brand of spurs, some new spur straps and maybe children’s spurs because my ankles are very small and these spurs wiggle which might be causing some annoyance?

[shall]

@LarkspurCO

The vast majority of the time when a horse doesn’t obey an aid, it’s because he either doesn’t understand what you’re asking or isn’t physically prepared to do it.

Good advice here in this thread. Let me add you need the hind end to jump into the canter. Something you can try is halt, backup, and then ask for canter. You can feel how that prepared the horse, and look for ways to get the same through half halts. This was a light bulb moment for me with my young horse.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

@LarkspurCO

The vast majority of the time when a horse doesn’t obey an aid, it’s because he either doesn’t understand what you’re asking or isn’t physically prepared to do it. When we get into the mindset of thinking thoughts like “she’s blowing me off” that can start to bring frustration and other unproductive emotions into the ride. Then all of a sudden you find yourself in an argument with your horse, rather than teaching your horse what you want him to do.

Good point! “Blowing me off” with my mare is dealing with allowing her attention wander to something she feels is more interesting than what I am asking her to do. She is opinionated after all. Working with a different horse that actively went to lala land whenever ridden helped illuminate the problem I had created with my mare. Clicker training is helping bring her focus back to me, and our rides have been much more productive now!