You’re making my point
We have been turning out horses in mixed herds at our place for my 45+ years…really can’t think of any pasture accidents. We don’t allow hind shoes, and the horses are out about 18 hours a day, both of which help the accident stats. The frantic horses are the isolated horses, or the horses who do not get enough turn out per day and therefore are explosive. You also have to introduce new horses into the herd carefully. There can be a period of adjustment for the poor show horses who are not used to turn out because it affects them mentally and there is a form of PTSD, I believe, for a horse that has been inside and isolated too long. I do not believe that people without turn out should have horses, and I am also very skeptical/critical of the multi week shows with no turn out. I hope there is no one on here that thinks keeping a dog in solitary confinement and only letting it move on a leash is acceptable. We know it would be a human rights abuse for people. Not sure how we could think that it’s OK to treat a herd animal this way–especially where the excuse is the horse’s “value.” People without respect for the innate value of another living creature should not have ownership of one. People who are in horses for the perceived status symbol and unable to empathize with the horse’s basic needs and emotions are a grave disappointment to equestrianism and I’m glad this would-be influencer is being called out.
I don’t think it’s ideal to keep horses in 24/7 aside from being ridden and hand walked from time to time. Yuck.
Also @NancyM that’s a very nice mare. Love her knees.
@lenapesadie hits an important nail on the head. If you are in “turnout is the hill I die on” camp and your answer to this:
Blockquote
But should all the people in urban areas be barred from having horses? There are lots of horses living in pens with a few minutes of arena turn out here and there. Should all of those people no longer have a horse?
If your answer to this question is yes, people living in cities should not have horses… well, then don’t be surprised in the future when equestrian sports die and there’s no funding for local, regional or international horse events and your local trail becomes “bikers and hikers only” and the boarding stables and tack stores around you one by one disappear into housing developments, skateboard parks, and strip malls. If people in the cities don’t support , admire, and appreciate horses because they got a chance to take a summer camp or a string of lessons… then they won’t grow up with stars in their eyes to one day have a little farmette in the country or suburbs, they won’t be inspired to get off their phones or video games and admire and appreciate horses. Ever heard of Compton Cowboys in Los Angeles? There are similar groups in Chicago and other urban areas. Are you going to go to Compton and tell them they can’t have horses because they only have a riding arena to turn them out from?
Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.
(For the record I have 4 horses in pasture right now and one at horse show in a box stall. I am firmly in the turnout is important camp, but also in the don’t judge outside your context camp.)
I think this is an important distinction in the group vs. single debate. Once you put hind shoes on them (again, usually for their benefit as we pursue our sport) it is not necessarily good practice to put them out together.
Other than that, there is an insane amount of hill-dying here. People dying on hills about other people dying on hills. Just let people have their hills.
No hind shoes is helpful in group paddock/ pasture settings but no guarantee. The mare in my story below had no hind shoes:
But yeah @dags I agree with you, there’s a lot of hills in this thread. Off to ride my pasture horses before heading to the horse show. Happy Saturday everybody.
Too right. I’m not dying on the general hill of all horses must get x turnout. Heck, we can’t even make sure all horses are getting enough to eat. Let’s start with that hill.
100% agree
I’ll take a stab at making a line between no turnout and no group turnout.
Much of animal welfare and environmental enrichment is related to the ability of an animal to express innate behaviours. Horses sharing a fence line, especially if they can touch, can engage in many social behaviours in spite of the fence. This is in addition to the behaviours they get to express just by virtue of being turned out at all.
It’s true that everything we do with horses is striking a balance between our needs and theirs. But there is a much bigger difference between no turnout and individual turnout than between individual and group turnout.
We have 3 horses at home. They were all out together but my boy is submissive and gets bullied.
The day I saw him fall over because the other gelding looked at him and he went to get away too fast and fell over, I have put him in his own paddock. He can groom with them over the fence. They can nap together and he can get away when he wants.
At the Agistment I grew up on the horses were in individual paddocks and yards. Each one had their own shelter, it is not cold here so the shelters are for shade not warmth.
We had a stream of income from horses coming from herd turnout and were injured. One was chased and went down under a rail that was shorter than she was, so when she got up she broke her wither.
Another was chased into a deep dam and the other horse would not enter, but wouldn’t let the other horse out, by running around the dam to attack whenever it tried to exit. The horse was swimming for hours and nearly died of exhaustion.
Only 2 of the stories from the stream of injured horses that came to our place.
The people were so relieved to find a place where their horses were safe from other people’s horses and stayed at our place until they either moved location, got out of horses or bought their own place.
Sorry, but the idea that discussing what practices should be acceptable for the health of living creatures, “smacks of privilege” is ridiculous. Can we tone down the histrionics? Also, equestrian supports get minimal funding already. That’s why it’s not as popular here in the states. Everyone here cares about the well-being of these animals that doesn’t come at the expense of our own entertainment - that’s something to be applauded. If that means they cast a critical eye over turn-out( training, riding, etc) practices every few years, that’s fine. It’s how we make progress.
The problem I’ve encountered with turnout in boarding situations is the turn out space is rarely large enough. Ten horses in a 30 acre pasture will not have the problems that ten horses in a three acre pasture will. With more space the horses can actually create small herds, get away from bullies, and have enough room to gallop. In a tighter area they can’t blow off steam as safely, many horses that get turned out will have that initial spaz of play time.
I had 3 geldings that had lived together for years. Usually a small pasture but sometimes stalls with adjoining paddocks. When I put them on summer board at a place that was about 55 acres with trees and a pond they stuck together for several weeks. By month two each gelding had formed a small band of mares and lived separate from their former stall mates. After about 3 1/2 months I brought them to the barn I had built. It had a ten acre hay pasture they could use in the fall and winter, otherwise they went from their stall/paddock into a two acre dry lot each day. By the end very first day they were back into their old roles.
I’m sorry but horse ownership, IS a privilege, not a right.
Huge difference between having limited resources and doing the best you can and having paddocks and paddocks of useful turnout but not utilizing them for completely selfish reasons
This gave me a good laugh
That is what has surprised me the most. Do folks REALLY not know that LOTS people do not turn out? I think they do know but they are just pouncing on a convenient target.
I have had horses living out 24/7 (who never went to a show or had a hard day that could remotely be blamed) their whole life get ulcers, horses get Lyme disease 48 hours after moving from some place without, to a part of the planet that HAS LYMES and they are put out in a field, horses that jump fences, pace fence lines chronically, etc, etc up to and including owners who are just nervous about restarting turnout with their precious beastie that has not been turned out in a decade.
Domestication comes with some trade offs. But horses ARE DOMESTICATED (successful for thousands of years) because they cope really well, and very often thrive fantastically, with the trade offs.
Agree with most of this
Precisely
That is a big problem for you then. NOTHING is as simple as someone standing on the outside dictating what other people have to/should do. Horses temperaments vary as much as any other social mammal.
Dogs are social but it simply not doable for many dog owners to keep their dogs with them all day long. That would probably be what is best for the dogs. But that is a big NO folks.
Yup