Yes, Southern California. Been riding here for forty years. The turnout I described was used at all barns I’ve been at or known about. Only one barn had a pasture, but it was for retired horses, and it’s been gone for ten years.
I looked up Dani Waldman and read through several sites commenting on her lack of turnout. The people who posted talked about daily pasture turnout for their horses. It made me wonder how common pastures are and where they are.
So I looked at quite a few barns online in So Cal (I’m on vacation, I had time). Some have pasture boarding but not pasture turnout. Several in San Luis Obispo had daily pasture turnout like people have talked about. Otherwise, turnout wasn’t mentioned/offered, or it was paid for separately but they didn’t say where (pasture/pipe corral/arena) or for how long.
I was trying to figure out how common pasture turnout was compared to stall boarding. I assume it all depends on how much land there is.
Ah. The eternal debate here, probably even upthread, about the typical lack of hours-long turnout in Southern California barns.
Yes, it’s a thing. Many horses do OK. Some don’t. You do have to be good about getting them out every day. Combination of lack of land, lack of water, and probably even tradition is the cause. You may be able to find situations where they’re out much of or all day, but it’s not likely to be 1-2 acres and grass. And it may involve a lot of driving, depending on where you live.
One advantage of our climate in much of So Cal is that they can live out 24/7 with a large shelter. Lack of water does help some of the bug issues. And it’s pretty typical to get consistently negative fecals.
I feel sorry for your horse. The only time he’s let out of his/her closet is to be micromanaged, 5 days a week. Even if you’re coming to ride, let your horse have some “me” time, for crying out loud.
We need to remember that we are talking about domestic animals bred and raised and trained and managed to do our bidding.
While we try to do best for them, for millennia we have found many ways to do our best in all kinds of ways, for the horses they are.
How we feel about it as humans, well, if horses are doing fine, I guess we may just not understand what is best.
Many, many horses are fine in riding schools, being school horses, is what they are trained and managed for and for many minimal to no regular turnout is fine.
In Europe horses were stabled 24/7 and taken out several times a day to be led to a communal stable water trough, plus to be worked with and ridden also several times a day many days and generally to go to shows or trail rides on weekends.
In one riding center in the summers we would led them out to a really nice pasture for a few hours most days and many enjoyed that, but after a bit plenty of them were back by the gate and we opened it and they went on their own to their own places in the stables and happy to do so, didn’t have to go catch to bring them in.
For those horses, managed like that, it worked and they were happy and healthy into old age, just as another set of horses kept out 24/7 and brought in to ride may be.
If we watch horses, most living out 24/7 spend much of their time just standing there, no different than they would in a stall and in a stall they don’t have to also be watching out for someone coming to push them around.
Horses that are half day out and half in, some love it out, some would rather stay in in peace and quiet.
Horses are individuals, some like it one way, others not so much and their likes change during their life also.
I would not let anyone tell us how to manage our horses, why should we make demands of others that they manage theirs the way we think they need to?
As long as horses are well cared for, how to do that should be each manager’s call.
It is not healthy for horses to stand for 20+ hours a day - that is not good care. That is not something we can breed them to well tolerate in the same way we domesticated them. It impacts the gut, the lymphatic systems, etc. They need to get out and move.
It’s interesting to observe. My barn does overnight turnout so they are out usually at least 12 hours. My guy seems to be pretty content with that. When he is in during the day, much of that time is spent napping; standing and laying down. He also will lay down and nap in the pasture too so I think he must feel pretty comfortable there. He has never been in his stall for more than a day or so in very inclement weather conditions; new barn has an indoor so at least there is that option for when the weather is bad. I don’t think he would be happy in his stall for extended amounts of time though.
There is one horse there that doesn’t seem to “get” the pasture and likes to just stand by the gate a lot
There is a difference between necessity and normalcy.
I grew up in the southern part of Westchester closer to NYC where land was more scarce. Horses turned out, alone, in very small paddocks for maybe an hour or so a day. This was necessity - there wasn’t land for more at the barns I was at. It should not be the norm.
I now live in Upstate NY and previously worked at a barn in VA. Many of the horses live out 24/7. Some do night turnout. Others do day turnout. Some its more flexible to the owner’s preference.
My current barn does night turnout in summer and day turnout in winter, which is my preferred schedule for my laid-back horse who is a baby about extreme weather (we get a lot of it). When I was looking at barns to board at, the minimum turnout was 4 hours a day and I did not consider that enough for the more high-strung horse I had at the time.
So sure, Southern California may have horses who are in stalls 24/7 out of necessity. That does not mean it is the norm in horsemanship. You’re acting very surprised that people are telling you yes, lots of horses live out in pastures. You can’t really think that how your specific, land-deprived geographic area does things is how the whole country does things, right? I had never seen horses living in pastures before I moved to Upstate New York, but I knew it was a thing (and I was 18…)
I absolutely agree horses are individuals. I think what people are reacting to with Waldman specifically is that she is not treating them like individuals. If she said she had one horse that doesn’t turnout because he stands at the gate screaming the whole time, or jumps out and runs into his stall every time, I don’t think people would care. But a blanket no-turnout policy is the opposite of treating horses like individuals.
I moved a year ago from the East Coast to Southern California and have still not adjusted to the turnout situation. I will say… most horses handle it much better than I would expect. I’m actually still shocked at how mostly-okay most horses APPEAR to be. It’s amazing how adaptable horses are. And I think the fact that plenty of horses here do adapt and basically seem fine lulls people into a false sense of comfort with the situation. It’s very normalized, but it’s certainly not the optimal way for horses to live.
I think you just have to do the best you can with the resources you have to maximize movement, socialization, and enrichment. For me, that’s a stall with a run-out and my horse gets out 2x per day — once for turnout and once with me for a ride, hand walk around the neighborhood, lunge, graze, another turnout, whatever. It takes some effort but it’s certainly doable. If he had to live in a 12x12 without a run, I would not have a horse here. That’s non-negotiable to me with the lack of true turnout and pastures.
90% of you are getting so off topic, but I guess that is COTH message board way.
To bring it back on topic, Dani and Alan, her husband, absolutely have the turn out space at their farm in the Netherlands. Both the breeding side and the show jumper side have access.
And for those who do not know, Alan has always had a huge breeding operation that was before Dani and as I understand it, he is staying in. He is just not as famous to Americans as a VDL or Schockemohle, so appears many of you are not aware of this, so I understand that.
It was a choice to not do turn out, and this is Dani’s own words, as we are all well aware. The is a lot of available information at the Waldman farms in the Netherlands. It was a training choice to not do the turn out. I never mind the fact I know this because I have family over there, it is all readily available online and through Instagram.
But, all this is immaterial at this point as Dani leaving the competitive side of the sport, as she has repeatedly announce with her own fanfare.
Con’t on about SoCal or whatever, but to bring the topic back to center, the Waldman show jumpers not being turned out was a choice, not because there wasn’t space.
If you read my post again, horses were in 24/7 as in no turnout, but were out of the stall for watering, handling and riding several times a day, or for long time some days to shows and trail riding.
No horse was standing 24/7 20+ hours in their stall without very good reason, like maybe an injury.
Which were very rare in those days, horses were fit for the jobs at hand, unlike so many today seem to be.
For those that had an outside pen from their stall, they seemed to like it best, as they had all kinds of activities and horses to smell and watch and no one to defend from, or try to boss.
That is another topic, if horses in our confined pastures by most measures are better with others to boss or stay out of their way, or individually with company but not invading their personal space in smaller areas.
I think the older the horse, the more contented they are at peace in their own space, with others across fences, rarely find a real horse friend that doesn’t make demands of them.
In general, of course, every horse we have to watch and do what they show us is most comfortable for them, whatever that may be whatever we may think should happen according to our human eyes.
As for that trainer that keeps horses confined, I guess that if one needed turnout, I doubt she would not provide some, but knows the way she was managing was fine, for those horses she had?
Just as someone convinced horses have to be out 24/7, if one horse was pacing by the gate all day long, they would figure something else for that horse, regardless of what hat person believed?
I knew horses were kept full time in pastures. I wasn’t aware of turning horses out in pastures (not turnouts) and then putting them in box stalls.
You seem to think we’re keeping all our horses in box stalls in So Cal.
Box stalls aren’t used as much in So Cal. Most barns have only a few, except for high-end show barns. Stalls with runs and pipe corrals are much more common which is more space than a 12 x 12 stall and horses have access to other horses 24/7. Slow feeders are becoming popular. I have a stall with a run. Due to the heat I want my horse to have the option of being inside with fans, which she does.
I don’t like box stalls at all and I agree that if that’s the only option then the horse needs more turnout.
Agreeing and emphasizing this. I just moved to the other side of the country and had an unexpected culture shock. I expected there to be endless green pasture and instead found that it’s common for horses to be inside for the majority of the year in 12x12 (or 12x10) fully enclosed, dark stalls with low ceilings. Runs and dry lots are nonexistent at boarding facilities. I’m not convinced yet that pasture turnout for half the day for a few months out of the year is better than living in a large airy pipe corral with turnout in a sun pen - and I really didn’t expect to feel this way!
Horses are prey animals and as such will often not show outward signs of stress being stalled a lot. But when researched based on stress factors like brain waves, the horses are highly stressed in confinement even they appear stoic and calm… An inconvenient researched based truth for those justifying city boarding. Saying a " horse just stands around" when out can mean many different things. If the pasture is most bare of interesting vegetation, or is a gravel dry lot etc. then yes, a horse gets bored . Its up to the humans to create a more natural interesting environment with paradise paddocks, a hay trail etc. Using the example that horses needs are met by taking them out for grooming, a hand walk etc does not address the horses natural need to walk about with head down grazing, making their own decisions during time out e.g I want to stand over here, now I want to stand over there, now I want to nibble some grass and so forth. Yes there horses who survive the mostly stall life. Some when eventually given a choice of turnout are so over stressed from years of stall confinement they have a hard time adjusting to actual turnout. That in no way means, they love living in a stall. Then there are the horses like mine that when finally given the choice of being in his stall or using his 24/7 access to turnout, he would run out of his stall ( if he happened to be in eating hay), and gallop at the end of his pasture screaming a high pitch wail, if he ever saw someone that looked like they were going to shut the pasture stall door. He has now adjusted to all day turnout as we are not at the 24/7 place but if his turnout is cut short one day, hard to drag him back in to the barn. I board , so I can only do so much. But do drive 50 minutes to a barn to give my horse a better lifestyle. Its a sacrifice for myself , but also a choice to do what is best for my horse.
… and some forget that horses, especially domestic and so feral horses also, are horses, not humans.
They don’t live for and have all the aspirations humans have, are extremely adaptable as the horses we bred them to be, as humans and so many other species are.
Several such studies you refer to were not comparing horses to horses in other situations, like in the wild, where they too would show when they are contented or under stress, stress being part off all alive.
We should manage our horses in the best interest of the horses and the humans that bred and use them and that takes adaptation from both, stress at times.
We should learn to manage all in our lives with the right amount of stress to thrive and not so much is harmful, for all we manage, horses also.
Or, as animal rights extremists insist, keep horses off limits to humans, so we may not stress or mismanage them.
As if that makes sense, as much as saying humans should not hurl down highways at high speeds because some may crash and be injured and die, or not keep kids until adults in schools because they should be just running free without stress while growing up and once grown expect them to go to work, what stressful experiences those are.
Seriously, we need as many studies as we can so we keep learning to manage all we do better, but stress and managing lives is part of everything alive, horses also.
How we keep horses doesn’t has to be in some ideal situation, plenty of horses truly thrive under many different managements.
Pasture Paradise is but one more way to manage horses, with it’s own stress also, as is stabling or pastured. We can’t escape stress and not only that, some stress is a healthy part of lives.
Ever watch horses out to all different kinds of pasture situations?
Horses are more stressed there than in a stall all their own, where they don’t have to keep watching for other horses that they feel the need to interact with, if to boss or give berth to.
As horses mature and especially as they get older, they prefer more solitude, the older the more they thrive with horses around but not having to be hyper alert, rest at peace when in their own safe place. If one is super attached to another horse, the other generally could care less, just ignores the one that to that horse is being a pest, if a gentle one.
In our region, we pasture (stock) 30 acres per horse, in other places 2 horses per acre.
Both are fine, depending on other than the stocking rate.
What is objectionable is those that want everyone to manage horses in a rigid, their way only is right, ignoring that there are as many variables to good management as they are individual horses.
While in some topics we agree, in others we will have to agree to disagree. I will say, the context of a horse being " adaptable" is not the same as the horse not being stressed. That was the POINT of one study-a horse looking adaptable was not in fact really adapting, (the inconvenient truth) they were surviving as a prey animal will do and not showing weakness. Yes, some horses in the study appeared to look adaptable being stalled most of the time, but the brain waves showed otherwise. These were not wild horses… My response was to the Dani topic of horses IN STALLS MOST OF THEIR DAY, and when out -not having any free choice turnout where they have some time to move as they want. I don’t have all the answers, and I don’t have an extremist view imo, but at the same time, I would be ok with an animal welfare law requiring some free move about time daily for a horse. I mean, we used to keep large wild animals in tiny cages for " viewing". Now we know better.
I think this is super important. I’d imagine that being in the wild, having trouble finding food or water, trying to deal with predators, foot pain (potentially) or injury - those things are pretty stressful.
From the studies I’ve read, it seems that socializing (group housing or contact with other horses) even when stalled is more important than turnout for wellbeing provided the horse is still getting exercise and enrichment in other ways. The socialization may account for what a lot of people think are the “benefits of turnout” in seeing a more relaxed horse etc.
Most of the horses with owners on this board are pretty lucky, for a horse.
In my herd, food brought to them 24/7, they never go without water, no predators, veterinary care and hoof care never get neglected, and they have their buddies that they are able to pal around with in the barn and in their paddocks. They do go out, but we only have large dry lots here (but there’s lots of hay that is supplied routinely and trees they can nibble on). Most of them ask to come in the minute they see a human if it’s buggy, hot, rainy, cold, windy, or otherwise inclement (some ask to come in the minute they see a human period). I think they’ve got a pretty good deal. All I ask for in exchange is 20 minutes of work every few days. LOL
