A few posted already and had horses in that range that still got turned out
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Plus the eight-figure thoroughbred stallions who get daily turnout that @skipollo posted pictures of. There were pictures of them on Instagram playing in the snow earlier this year too.
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No turnout at all seems like incredible cruelty to me, I can’t even read the other posts on this thread, it makes me so sad. Accidents can happen at any time whether the horse is turned out or not, its as stupid as never leaving your home because you might get hit by a car. And walking on a treadmill is work IMO! At least it is to me when I’m doing it, I’m sure a horse would pick turnout over the treadmill or handwalking. Its important to just be a horse sometimes!
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Plus, in addition to being more valuable than almost any sport horse competing, TB stallions also bring in revenue via breeding and can only live cover. Some of those stallions have six-figure stud fees, and will breed 2 mares a day during breeding season. I don’t know what would happen if they had a pasture injury and couldn’t bear weight only on their hinds to breed, but I assume the owners would be out a good chunk of money for that season. I also don’t know if they’re insured for loss of breeding use or if these farms are breeding on a scale / have a business model that can absorb that loss… but these are very valuable horses who have a much more profitable “job” than most sporthorses, and they still get turnout.
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Ultimately, Dani’s argument that she doesn’t “trust the horses not to hurt themselves” is not really the point for me. Surely they’re not doing anything more grueling than jumping 1.60 on different types of footing in the pasture?
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If you have a million dollar horse, you better have enough money to lose a million dollar horse (or have it properly insured). Because we all know horses are injury prone flight animals who can and will hurt themselves in all sorts of situations–inside and out. A million dollar horse for a very wealthy person is the same as, or less, valuable as my $15,000 horse compared to my income.
If anyone advocated for keeping dogs in crates all the time minus a couple walks or training sessions, I think this would be a different conversation. Just because it’s the “norm” for some horse keeping doesn’t mean it’s good for the horse physically or mentally.
Blows my mind that this is still a conversation. Turnout is of course better for the horse. Doesn’t mean 24/7, but even an hour or so to “be a horse”.
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I guess our definitions of “healthy” vary greatly.
Mental health is just as important as physical health, but even still, there’s studies proving that turnout specifically provides many physical benefits to horses that all of those other strictly-regimented exercises do not.
In regards to mid-to-upper-level horses in hunters, jumpers, and dressage (so encompassing lots of A/Os and such riding at big fancy training barns, not just the Dani Whatevers of the industry), the ones that (stereo)-typically do not get much turnout, I can’t help but feel that they can’t really be all that physically healthy considering the number of joint injections many of them get each year just to stay sound. Nor can I consider them to be mentally healthy when we all know a large number of them require calming supplements and tubes and tubes of Perfect Prep to get around the ring.
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I think everyone has covered most of the sides of this discussion, but I keep seeing people mention insurance. Even if insurance covers the monetary aspect, it doesn’t address the actual problem of a horse getting hurt. They don’t grow on trees even if you have all the cash in the world. Insurance doesn’t replace a missed Olympics, and that horse might be someone’s last “big horse” or they may never find another that they click with well enough to get back to that level of sport. A horse’s career ending injury can literally be the end of someone’s career for life, regardless of the size of their pocketbook.
I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but replacing a horse is rarely about having its cash value.
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Right, and they can hang themselves on nearly anything in the stall and miss the same opportunities.
If you want predictable performance, you’re in the wrong sport. Get a dirtbike.
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This is why everyone on the Olympic team has multiple Olympic horses.
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Are these all Dani’s personal horses? If not, I can see an argument for not wanting client horses to get hurt. High $ figure horses typically mean high $ figure clients, and they aren’t always willing to accept “my horse got hurt being an idiot horse”. She did mention the alternatives, including hand walking & grazing, longing and other exercise, and I’m going to guess that she accepts frivolity when longing as many in the saddlebred industry do as well.
Don’t get me wrong, I think turnout is important, but I really like looking at all sides of an issue.
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I mean, sorry, but that’s the sport. I know a couple professionals who are really relying on one horse to make their dreams come true. They somehow manage to turn out the horse. To me, that’s seeing the bigger picture.
A rider who is dependent on a single horse to make it to the top and can’t click with any others is well… limited. So maybe they don’t deserve to be at the top for very long bc they frankly aren’t that good. Or they got lucky. Or they have no social skills and they can’t find new owners. Whatever. That still doesn’t give them the right to treat their one horse as a machine.
I have more compassion for the rider who only has one horse they struggle to afford having a paddock injury than any of the horses at the top end. The professionals I know who don’t insure their horses have done the math and know the laws of averages in this business with horses. They are grown ups. That’s the sport. It’s brutal.
But so is being expected to jump at the highest levels, in the most chaotic places all over the world and living in a 12x12 stall. They deserve more.
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years ago when horses were working horses, they did not live long lives. They were worked to death. They did not last long, working long hours, standing up in a tie stall etc. They did have shoes though otherwise their feet would not last on all the stones. But it was not a good life at all. The horses for the rich had their tails cut off and their heads were tied up to look regal while pulling heavy carriages. When they could not work, they were shot. The life of horse centuries ago has never been portrayed realistically in movies except maybe war movies. i find it sad we are at the point where laws need to be made to protect the humane welfare of a horse. Horses are not essential working animals that need to live in/near a large city like LA. i do think that cities and counties need to have regulation for how much space per horse is humane. And that would mean, that unless there was a special reason ( police horses etc) horses would need to be housed with some turnout. its actually possible to design smaller properties with turnout and on smaller properties turnout can be a 24/7 rotation so they all get out. but as others have said, some of the training barns would rather CHARGE for hand walking etc. its the free choice movement in turnout, the having time to choose where they go, when they go, see other horses even its only over the fence, that hand walking, hot walker, treadmill just can not emulate.
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Been saying this for years, people who think their horses suspensory injury or tear came from the paddock, when it reality its the too busy rider who takes their horse out of the stall with no warm up, pays no attention to the footing they are riding on ( i always hand walk my horse in the arena first before riding to see how the footing is as you can’t always tell when you are on your horse ) these busy riders immediately work their horse and work its hard because they are too busy to get to the barn enough, need to check their email and texts and take selfies. . Then said horse is put right back in stall with no cool down of the legs. Oh, and lets not forget they also " lunge their horse in tiny circles at a fast speed often"… My horse gets a long warm up, slow cool down and ice boots after a workout . My Vet agrees most pasture injuries ( other than kicks) are rider caused and most Vets won’t tell you . Dani is an example of the new modern horse person. A type I hope does not catch on. Many years ago horseman knew better.
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I have never commented this much on one post, but I so agree with you. The people who think horses are machines need to move to a sport that uses well, machines. Whoever what snarking about who here has a million dollar horse, well no good words. Horses are living creatures and as such deserve a humane living. All the science points to horses needing a herd environment. The top show world is getting ridiculous. But then, if one ever read the book about show jumping in the 1980s, people were killing their horses for money back then with no remorse. Glad that there are some horseman who do speak up for the horse and care. Maybe its time for sponsors to sponsor and favor the riders that give their horses a decent life while showing.
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There is no science to support that horses can be perfectly healthy mentally and physically with no turnout. Can they stay alive and stay functional with all the doggy walks? Some do for a period of time. But that means they have shut down and are trying to adapt and survive. The research does show that hot walkers, lunging etc daily put extra stress on the joints in the worst way from smaller circles. Which I get is an inconvenient truth for some professionals. Research shows that horses need interaction with other horses, free choice movement as in they can choose to walk here or there or not. But if they have a choice, even if its only 3 or 4 hours it matters to the horse.
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This is a super naive question and frankly not relevant to me and my low jump ambitions. However, is poling where you knock the horse’s shins with a rail as they jump to encourage them to raise their knees? I can see how it’s an aversive, but I don’t see how it’s so much worse than a lot of the other aversive training aids that are commonplace with horses. People whack their horse’s flank with a crop at the base of a jump. What gives polling such a different reputation as a cruel practice? Again, I don’t have any skin in the game, but was just curious.
@danhelm441
Opinions may vary on this, but to me poling is cruel because it’s dishonest. When you approach a jump on your horse you are supposed to have a partnership and shared understanding of the effort it will take to get from the takeoff side to the landing side.
You as the rider are responsible for piloting the horse to a good enough distance to safely and comfortably clear the jump. The horse is responsible for assessing the height and width of the obstacle and making the physical effort to clear it.
If you have your horse poled in flight, you have lied to your horse. The horse has been gaslighted, been fooled into thinking that it can’t trust its own judgement to measure jumps, been given evidence that it can’t trust you to keep it safe, and the partnership is broken.
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And to add to this - if you have a horse that has figured out they can knock the rail, you can try heavy rails, but if that doesn’t work, maybe the horse isn’t suited for the discipline. They should be naturally careful, not forced to be so by crappy training practices.
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Poling is cruel in part because done improperly it can cause a horse to flip, have a rotational, and be injured/die.
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