DD Crushed by pony sale gone bad!

[IPEsq]

Here’s an article that discusses Florida law in relation to agency and equine transactions. While Florida has very robust codified and common law on the subject, that doesn’t mean there isn’t something wherever the OP is (if not Florida) that could be used here. Some of the actions discussed are fraud, unfair competition / deceptive trade practices, and it’s important to note that fraud or breach of fiduciary duty can include material omissions (failure to disclose) as well as active misrepresentations. Florida also has specific rules on dual agency. What is interesting about Florida is that if there is any monetary harm, that is enough to find unfair and deceptive trade practice. A few other states are also discussed.

https://www.floridabar.org/the-flori…ts-and-others/

While it might be possible for the sale from you to trainer to be voidable because of fraud, and therefore the subsequent sale was invalid and you can get the pony back, most likely your remedy is going to be getting paid damages for what you would have gotten had trainer told you of the other party’s interest and closed the deal appropriately without coercing you into accepting a bargain price and then marking up the pony and who knows what kind of double dipping on the commissions.

[vxf111]

@dags

Oh COTH…

NOT defending trainer. Discussing whether there is actual legal recourse that won’t just drain OP’s bank account is NOT defending the trainer. Trainer sounds like a real piece of work and I already suggested this be pursued through USHJA if the courts cannot help her.

Could we perhaps talk about issues around here without casting about personal judgments on our fellow forum users?

@vxf111 I appreciate your educated & professional insight. Could you elaborate on “BOFD is a tort?” Just want to understand what act(?), in lieu of a document(?), binds the agency. This kind of thread has potential to be helpful for anyone trying to pursue actions against a fraudulent agent.

If you have a fiduciary relationship then it doesn’t matter what a contract says (or even if there is one). The fiduciary owes a duty of loyalty to the principal and breach of that duty is a tort. There was some questioning up thread about what the contracts say but it doesn’t matter. Breach of fiduciary duty isn’t a contract action, it’s a tort. Torts arise from duties we recognize as a society OUTSIDE the terms of a contract. Perhaps there is also a breach of contract here, we don’t know, but if the facts are as the OP says I literally am unable to think of a clearer example of breach of fiduciary duty. This is, quite literally, the exact scenario we use to teach/illustrate the tort. This is double dealing by the agent to the detriment of the principal and the benefit of the agent. That is exactly the core example of a breach of fiduciary duty

[supernatural]

We don’t know what the contract in writing said. Until contract conditions are known it’s a crap shoot and people are giving opinions on Pie in the Sky.

[BeeHoney]

@supernatural

We don’t know what the contract in writing said. Until contract conditions are known it’s a crap shoot and people are giving opinions on Pie in the Sky.

What? In this instance, it doesn’t matter what the contract said. Taking advantage of someone that you have a fiduciary duty to is patently illegal in any business.

[supernatural]

How do you know there is a Fudiciary Duty established??? I’m just asking the question because so far all I’ve heard or seen is what OP has said. The “ I should have had more in writing”, what does that mean. You guys have her going to court without knowing what the contract with whomever said. If the contract was put in here and I missed it then MY bad. I have no clue whether board was being paid… sales board , training board???I don’t know that from info given here. I don’t know circumstances. The OP posts here a lot. There have been many posts about unscrupulous sellers/agents/brokers.

It happens. I get it. You trust someone and do something you wouldn’t ordinarily do because you trust them.

I have NO idea what the real story is here. I would not be happy if I were her. I just know that I Don’t know the deal.

One clarification. The people in Florida that sold the horse for a lot of money and lied to the owner and owner won a lawsuit. Please know the only reason they got charged was that they lied to the owner what the horse got sold for. Someone commented gee how stupid they were . All they had to do was buy the horse first and then they could sell for whatever they want.

It will come down to what type type of agreement these people had. If it was an “ on the cuff” type thing??? I don’t know the deal and until I saw paperwork I’d reserve judgement.

[Nacho2004]

@supernatural …We paid board for 1.5 years there and my daughter went to every show. She was very much our fiduciary agent, not an off the cuff kind of thing. She even did pro rides on him to keep him fine tuned for my daughter

[supernatural]

What did your written contract with this trainer for selling your pony say??? I’m not disputing that you have a valid case. I just don’t know with things presented here. I’ve been where you are except mine was stolen and I received no monies. Accepting monies makes things a bit more difficult depending on the agreement that you had. If said trainer was being PAID by you to market and sell your pony I see you have a great case. If a different story… some kind of deal , trade , yada ya it becomes a way bigger grey area.

I wish you best of luck in getting this resolved for you and your daughter.

[IPEsq]

@supernatural

What did your written contract with this trainer for selling your pony say??? I’m not disputing that you have a valid case. I just don’t know with things presented here. I’ve been where you are except mine was stolen and I received no monies. Accepting monies makes things a bit more difficult depending on the agreement that you had. If said trainer was being PAID by you to market and sell your pony I see you have a great case. If a different story… some kind of deal , trade , yada ya it becomes a way bigger grey area.

A fiduciary relationship does not require a written contract or any past engagement involving payment. This is not a breach of contract issue.

[roseymare]

Really it is not. In showing the pony to potential buyers the trainer was selling the pony for the OP and she has a fiduciary responsibility no matter if a written contract exists.

[roseymare]

This is a problem across the horse industry. These stories have become so normal that people think it is simply an ethics issue…

[supernatural]

Ok. Well good luck in court. I wish you the very best.

[vxf111]

@supernatural

We don’t know what the contract in writing said. Until contract conditions are known it’s a crap shoot and people are giving opinions on Pie in the Sky.

What law school taught you that? Again it’s a TORT

[vxf111]

@IPEsq

A fiduciary relationship does not require a written contract or any past engagement involving payment. This is not a breach of contract issue.

This. Again. And again

[supernatural]

I love this board. When people start repeating themselves you know it’s time to go. Happy Torting and hopefully one of you lawyers in here will step up and help OP and her daughter win her TORT case. Good luck to the Op and her daughter.

[vxf111]

@supernatural

I love this board. When people start repeating themselves you know it’s time to go. Happy Torting and hopefully one of you lawyers in here will step up and help OP and her daughter win her TORT case. Good luck to the Op and her daughter.

If you don’t know what you’re talking about and you misspeak, the appropriate response is “I misspoke, sorry.” So I assume that’s what you were trying to convey.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@vxf111

If you have a fiduciary relationship then it doesn’t matter what a contract says (or even if there is one). The fiduciary owes a duty of loyalty to the principal and breach of that duty is a tort. There was some questioning up thread about what the contracts say but it doesn’t matter. Breach of fiduciary duty isn’t a contract action, it’s a tort. Torts arise from duties we recognize as a society OUTSIDE the terms of a contract. Perhaps there is also a breach of contract here, we don’t know, but if the facts are as the OP says I literally am unable to think of a clearer example of breach of fiduciary duty. This is, quite literally, the exact scenario we use to teach/illustrate the tort. This is double dealing by the agent to the detriment of the principal and the benefit of the agent. That is exactly the core example of a breach of fiduciary duty

Do you think there is also a cause of action for fraud? The trainer falsely told the client the third party was not interested in the pony, knowing that statement was false and intending to induce reliance.

[vxf111]

Fraud seems possible under these facts too

[mmeqcenter]

@vxf111 is my favorite COTHer.

I really hope this OP has all their ducks in a row and takes this trainer to court.

[findeight]

OP, do you have any proof of when these buyers originally looked at the Pony, what date you sold it to trainer and what date trainer sold it to them? How about the price they paid to trainer? How do you know exactly when and at what price?

Not no how not no way defending this trainer if the facts are as stated but OP needs to be able to prove her claim even if it’s just to USHJA. Been around plenty of misunderstandings and third hand versions of what actually happened and heard quite a bit of speculation as well as misstated prices in sales deals.

If OP wants to persue any action, she’ll need facts including prices and dates. She’ll need to get those ducks in a row first.

Sincerly hope OP is no longer dealing with this trainer even just lessons for DD. Time for a clean break with her. Once that trust is breached, no point continuing doing business with her. Wouldn’t contact the buyers here, there’s little they can do abd likely they have no idea plus there’s another young child here.

Have to say USHJA certification is nice but no guarantee of future ethics. It’s not that hard to fullfill the requirements but can be costly to obtain due to required clinics and travel on top of missed days at the barn. Many excellent trainers that always have a full barn don’t bother, some not so great that can afford it do get it. No guarantee and should not be the first thing to look for in your search for a new barn.

[mvp]

@Nacho2004

@supernatural …We paid board for 1.5 years there and my daughter went to every show. She was very much our fiduciary agent, not an off the cuff kind of thing. She even did pro rides on him to keep him fine tuned for my daughter

I’m not sure your hiring this person as your horse trainer establishes the kind of fiduciary duty involved in representing your interests in a sale.

Also, OP, did the pro 1. tell you no one who had come to see the pony wanted him; 2. buy him from you for a lowball price (lying about motive or to your kid or whatever);3 and then sell him to those same “uninterested” buyers for more money? That is an obvious No-no. Can you document the amount you received from the pro and the amount the buyers paid 24 hours later?

Confused because I assumed you would have mentioned this BS transaction and the discrepancy in price if it had happened this way.