Dear dog, please stop whining

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7781398]
Not atypical for the breed. He is intermittently reinforced. That is hugely rewarding, moreso than consistent reinforcement. So I’m afraid you are stuck with it unless you can 100% eliminate all reinforcement -from all sources :winkgrin:.

You may try keeping him busy. Like a horse who wants to walk off while mounting, you want to move? let’s yield haunches, turn on the forehand, back up, etc.

Pup wants to whine? He must want his nails clipped! Or his teeth brushed, or to practice backing up (away from the squirrel outside the window), stacking, pivoting, etc. Whining drives me nuts so I exert this level of commitment and effort. My fave is the nails.[/QUOTE]

This is good advice. OP, I have one that sounds just like your dobie - any time something is not going the way she wants? HEMMMMMMM HEEE HMMM HHMM EEE. So annoying. She whines when she sees a rabbit outside. She whines when the cat is in the ‘kitty closet’. She whines when she wants a spot on the couch and other doggies are occupying it. She whines at any given time, for any reason. If she gets particularly incessant, I used to give her a bath :lol: haven’t had time lately to.

I usually ignore her (I don’t think she has ever actually been REWARDED for her noise) but it hasn’t gone away. I may have to try the nails - she HATES any sort of grooming attention…

i will say - it may be a fluke - but after a week of ignoring the whining, rewarding him with love when he’s quiet, and sticking to it, our dog was randomly extremely quiet this morning. He whined and spun in circles when I came down, but then went to his bed and went quiet. Not sure what happened but he got a LOT of love and immediately let out and breakfasted :slight_smile: Good dog!

(probably was a fluke. LOL)

[QUOTE=dungrulla;7961175]
Dogs aren’t horses, and this will just teach the dog to fear having its nails clipped. You also can’t clip its nails every single time it does this. They like learning to do new things and have even shorter attention spans than horses. Most dogs LOVE to work, so you can’t view this as if you would a horse.
.[/QUOTE]

Uh… What? I fail to see how countering a negative behavior (whining) with something the dog doesn’t like (nail clipping) is going to cause the dog to fear having nails clipped.

[QUOTE=vtdobes;7961155]

TrotTrotPumpkin are you going to UDC nationals??[/QUOTE]

No. I’m taking a week long vacation in March (yay!!) and it would just be too much. There is online chatter about forming a IA,MN,SD chapter (how’s that for a drive?!). Would be nice if that happens though.

I used to be a member- be sure to keep us posted about UDC goings on!

I hear ya! I’m not going either (from VT). My dog really doesn’t have anything to enter yet. He earned his UDC Ch this fall and with our winters here his tracking has been on hold since November. A trial in April doesn’t give us much time to get back into that well enough to enter him. Oh well!!

Dungrullla we went sideways somehow

[QUOTE=dungrulla;7961175]
this will just teach the dog to fear having its nails clipped. You also can’t clip its nails every single time it does this…
A remote collar on a LOW setting would eliminate this behavior[/QUOTE]

Why will clipping the dogs’ nails teach it to fear nail clipping? Actually, it should be the opposite: the more you do it the easier it becomes. Does this mean you don’t clip nails because your dogs are afraid? I’m happy to help with that, if you’d like!

As far as doing it every time pooch whines, clip ONE nail every time pup whines. That would give you 16 - 20 reps. I clipped one paw at a time and my whiner connected the dots in 3 reps. I remember because I thought, “When are you gonna whine cuz I need to do your right hind like 3 days ago?!” Hahah. One of my dogs needs nails clipped 1x/week, the other 1x/2 weeks. Plenty of opportunity ;).

I’m confused how my suggestion of nail clipping will create fear and zapping with an e-collar is the best response :confused:? I see so many possibilities for that to go wrong (associations).

[QUOTE=Thoroughbred in Color;7961387]Uh… What? I fail to see how countering a negative behavior (whining) with something the dog doesn’t like (nail clipping) is going to cause the dog to fear having nails clipped.[/QUOTE] Ditto! Hoping dungrulla can explain.

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7967697]
Why will clipping the dogs’ nails teach it to fear nail clipping? Actually, it should be the opposite: the more you do it the easier it becomes. Does this mean you don’t clip nails because your dogs are afraid? I’m happy to help with that, if you’d like!

As far as doing it every time pooch whines, clip ONE nail every time pup whines. That would give you 16 - 20 reps. I clipped one paw at a time and my whiner connected the dots in 3 reps. I remember because I thought, “When are you gonna whine cuz I need to do your right hind like 3 days ago?!” Hahah. One of my dogs needs nails clipped 1x/week, the other 1x/2 weeks. Plenty of opportunity ;).

I’m confused how my suggestion of nail clipping will create fear and zapping with an e-collar is the best response :confused:? I see so many possibilities for that to go wrong (associations).

Ditto! Hoping dungrulla can explain.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn’t ever use things you NEED to do as punishment. Because you are probably annoyed at the time, you can wind up sensitizing the dog to that stimulus, ESPECIALLY if you are only doing one nail at a time. Activities required for the health and well being of the animal should be neutral-to-positive experiences, and if every time mom is annoyed, she grabs the dog to clip its nails, the dog is going to start associating annoyed-mom with nail clipping and can (but won’t always) learn to fear it. If you want to train a dog to have its nails clipped, feed it while you do so to counter condition the response.

Not to mention, a dog’s association window is approximately three seconds long. The shorter the timing window between action and stimulus, the better. Within a half second is ideal. By the time you get the nail clippers out, wrestle down the dog, and start clipping, you have far passed that window. Now the dog is getting its nails clipped, it’s unpleasant, and the dog really has no idea why. The dog then continues to whine, then gets “punished” for it with no meaningful association between the offense and the punishment. In a very smart dog, you might wind up with an exception to this rule, but most won’t.

Would you teach a horse that was afraid of or disliked its halter to be haltered by throwing the halter on it every time it did something naughty? Probably not, and for the same reasons, namely that the horse would neither learn to be haltered nor learn to stop being naughty.

As for the E-collar, that’s not a required piece of health or safety equipment, and when used correctly it shouldn’t hurt the dog and is at most mildly unpleasant. It should never, ever be used without supervision from a professional because you CAN and WILL fuck it up and that can result in ruining your dog. You are also supposed to leave the collar on the dog when it’s not in use so the collar has a neutral-to-positive association. The correction from an E-collar, when used correctly, comes within that crucial three second behavior association window. It is impossible to do that with nail clipping.

And yes, I do clip nails. My dog is not afraid of it because I have counter-conditioned any discomfort he has with the process. It is a neutral activity for us.

Um ok. I give up. Go ahead and shock a dog for whining. Report back the methods and results.

I won’t rattle off my achievements or credentials. I’ve posted enough over the years that one could probably find my trial results online. I will again credit the person who thought of this idea: Denise Fenzi. Her achievements speak for themselves.

I will say there is no wrestling or grabbing my dogs for nail clipping and I’ve desensitized many pets for their owners.

Best of luck in your pursuits.

[QUOTE=dungrulla;7969919]
You shouldn’t ever use things you NEED to do as punishment. Because you are probably annoyed at the time, you can wind up sensitizing the dog to that stimulus, ESPECIALLY if you are only doing one nail at a time. Activities required for the health and well being of the animal should be neutral-to-positive experiences, and if every time mom is annoyed, she grabs the dog to clip its nails, the dog is going to start associating annoyed-mom with nail clipping and can (but won’t always) learn to fear it. If you want to train a dog to have its nails clipped, feed it while you do so to counter condition the response.

Not to mention, a dog’s association window is approximately three seconds long. The shorter the timing window between action and stimulus, the better. Within a half second is ideal. By the time you get the nail clippers out, wrestle down the dog, and start clipping, you have far passed that window. Now the dog is getting its nails clipped, it’s unpleasant, and the dog really has no idea why. The dog then continues to whine, then gets “punished” for it with no meaningful association between the offense and the punishment. In a very smart dog, you might wind up with an exception to this rule, but most won’t.

Would you teach a horse that was afraid of or disliked its halter to be haltered by throwing the halter on it every time it did something naughty? Probably not, and for the same reasons, namely that the horse would neither learn to be haltered nor learn to stop being naughty.

As for the E-collar, that’s not a required piece of health or safety equipment, and when used correctly it shouldn’t hurt the dog and is at most mildly unpleasant. It should never, ever be used without supervision from a professional because you CAN and WILL fuck it up and that can result in ruining your dog. You are also supposed to leave the collar on the dog when it’s not in use so the collar has a neutral-to-positive association. The correction from an E-collar, when used correctly, comes within that crucial three second behavior association window. It is impossible to do that with nail clipping.

And yes, I do clip nails. My dog is not afraid of it because I have counter-conditioned any discomfort he has with the process. It is a neutral activity for us.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7970872]
Um ok. I give up. Go ahead and shock a dog for whining. Report back the methods and results.

I won’t rattle off my achievements or credentials. I’ve posted enough over the years that one could probably find my trial results online. I will again credit the person who thought of this idea: Denise Fenzi. Her achievements speak for themselves.

I will say there is no wrestling or grabbing my dogs for nail clipping and I’ve desensitized many pets for their owners.

Best of luck in your pursuits.[/QUOTE]

Okay. Good luck to you as well. Our training methods are clearly different, and you can imply abuse all you want because I use a remote e-collar in my training–and for your information I have used one to stop a dog from whining, it works. If you don’t like them, don’t use one. It’s no more upsetting to the dog than if I were to use a prong collar or a halti, which I would be willing to bet you have no problem with. There’s no reason to get defensive about it. I will continue using my training methods, which my trainer who has years of experience and trains protection dogs taught me, and you can use yours. OP asked for advice for this problem and we both gave it, she can make her own decision from here. There are 900,000 right ways to train a dog.