Definition of Amateur-Friendly Horse?

[Janet]

My definition of “amateur friendly” includes a different component, the ability to deal with an inconsistent schedule.

A horse that NEEDS to be ridden “every day”, or “at least 5 days a week” to perform/behave well, is NOT Amateur Friendly.

A horse that is a pleasure to ride the first day back after a 2 week vacation IS Amateur Friendly.

I can deal with a horse that spooks or “plays”. I can deal with a horse that objects to sloppy riding. But I can’t deal with a horse that objects to an inconsistent ridding schedule.

[atlatl]

@Libby2563

Follow-up question for everyone: when I see a horse marketed as “amateur-friendly,” I tend to assume that it’s also likely to be somewhat less talented than the ones marketed towards pros (though sometimes they are marketed for both)–do other people think the same thing?

Not necessarily. As has been mentioned, a lot depends on the amateur. I bought a horse with a super mind, but some training holes, so hardly a schoolmaster. I’m OK with that. The ad had words to the effect “while kind and forgiving, for the serious rider…”

If that same horse had super solid training but was trying to kill me at every opportunity, I would have taken a pass.

[netg]

I think NOT amateur friendly is the easier definition! My TB is most definitely not one who would be described as Amateur Friendly. He is, however, a great schoolmaster for me now - even though I taught him what he knows! The more he knows, the more particular he is about wanting things done correctly. Now, we could have taught him that correct was reaching forward and pulling his left ear for a canter pirouette, and he’d be fine with that - but would demand it gets pulled the correct direction and with the correct amount of pressure. He gets explosive when things are not done in the way he has learned is correct. Therefore, not Ammy Friendly. I think had he never raced or evented he would be very amateur friendly because he is sensitive but has almost no spook except for consistently being terrified of cattle. He’s pretty honest, never gets tired or complains about working hard, and learns quickly. I suspect if he had been trained as a dressage horse from the start he would have easily made GP and be much more amateur friendly than my mare except for gaits which would always be difficult to ride - they are the best TB gaits I have seen, and he has a short back which makes it harder.

Examples of amateur friendly which are very different:

I think my mare is quite ammy friendly. She will work and work and try hard without complaint. She is very sensitive and responsive, and treats aids as instruction to move a body part even if they are not for a known movement - so she is great for learning how to ride various movements. If you are too confusing with conflicting signals, she halts rather than fly off the handle, and as soon as you clarify she happily goes back to work. She would never tolerate rough treatment, but I think most amateurs are too kind, not rough, so that’s not an issue. She had some heat cycle pain issues when younger which kept her from being ammy friendly until we understood how to help manage them. Barring the many things which can happen with horses, she will end up an FEI horse because she has the energy and tendency to do FEI movements, and any amount of flubbing things up on my part won’t prevent that. (Injury, illness, etc., being the normal distractions which could prevent this.)

My trainer has a mare I call The Seatmaster. She is SUPER ammy friendly. She is literally bombproof - a transformer blew up during a lesson with a beginner and she didn’t react. She prefers not to move and if you block with your seat in the least, she will just halt. For a non-blocking beginner, she plods around like a training/first level horse and looks pleasant. If you’re learning and don’t really have things down and try to set her head, she will pull back and never go round. If you know how to get a horse round back to front, she becomes a forward ride with wonderful upper level lateral work, pirouettes, etc. She’s both a schoolmaster and an amateur friendly horse.

My mom’s mare was her last horse before she quit riding. She rarely chooses to go faster than a walk, even to get to her beloved food. She is a sure-footed and reliable trail horse. In the arena, she wants her back to swing. So depending what you’re doing with your seat she will vary from halt steps to long and low. She basically keeps herself round and working over her back without you doing anything because she learned how good that feels to her, and she’s about self preservation. If she had a competitive dressage home, I think an adult amateur could have easily gotten their bronze on her with almost no pro rides. I can’t imagine her ever happily become an FEI horse as that’s just way too much effort, and she would have been unlikely to score in the 70s. But she would have been plenty of horse for most adult amateurs of modest goals who want a multi-use horse they can play with.

[PNWjumper]

@Libby2563

Follow-up question for everyone: when I see a horse marketed as “amateur-friendly,” I tend to assume that it’s also likely to be somewhat less talented than the ones marketed towards pros (though sometimes they are marketed for both)–do other people think the same thing?

In short - no.

I think that skill and ability has ZERO to do with an amateur friendly brain.

With that being said, I dothink that people sometimes mean to imply that connection in ads (e.g. horse isn’t going to make it to the upper levels but will absolutely pack a less-ambitious-than-a-pro amateur around). In jumping examples, I’ve seen many horses marketed as ammy horses because they pull rails (but always jump no matter what). But the correlation between the two things is not a direct link. Well, that’s not totally true. I do think that often a horse with a wicked streak will go that extra mile for the rider when the chips are down, and that “spark” is often what a real “amateur horse” is missing (which is WHY they will cope with a mistake so happily). But I don’t think there’s a direct connection between being willing to accept mistakes and lack of talent. I just think that the uber talented horses who are willing to tolerate sloppy riding/inconsistent schedules/mistakes (and so on) are very few and far between…and probably not being marketed by an ad leader about being “amateur proof.”

So with all of that being said, I can say that I absolutely do not equate “amateur friendly” to “less talented.”

The horse in my video above has the step, scope, and temperament to jump around international derbies. But IN ADDITION to that skill and scope, he’s totally willing to tote a mistake-laden amateur (or kid) around along the way.

And gosh, I sure hope that people don’t look at my horses’ ads and think that they’re less talented than ones with quirkier brains and more specific rides!

[Silverbridge]

@Libby2563

Follow-up question for everyone: when I see a horse marketed as “amateur-friendly,” I tend to assume that it’s also likely to be somewhat less talented than the ones marketed towards pros (though sometimes they are marketed for both)–do other people think the same thing?

I think that really depends on the budget/price point.

You tell me a six-figure horse is amateur-friendly AND possessive of extravagant gaits and correct training, and I would say, “Well, okay.”

You tell me a 15K horse is all of that, and I would say, “What planet have you come from and how is the weather there?”

You tell me a horse priced somewhere in between those parameters has all of those things, and I would say, “Your idea of ‘talent’ and ‘amateur friendly’ may not match my own idea of those terms. I need to see good video, and ask a few more questions, and see a show record, etc.”

But yes it’s totally possible for a horse to be both amateur friendly and super talented. It’s just rare and expensive.

[JLR1]

Yes, I think " amateur friendly" is code for: sweet, willing, tolerant horse who even with experienced pros isn’t capable of more than low 60s at FEI levels. Let’s face it, the really talented horses have gaits and temperaments that most of us ammies couldn’t begin to show off. The ammie friendly schoolmaster-type PSG/I1horse will likely sell in the less than $50k range…those with talent will go for a lot more.

[Dutchmare433]

@Silverbridge

But yes it’s totally possible for a horse to be both amateur friendly and super talented. It’s just rare and expensive.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. @PNWjumper 's horse sounds like that rare combination. Because there just aren’t that many horses that can jump with style around a derby and pack a kid around short stirrup, or horses that can score in the 70s at GP and also get the average ammy their Bronze.

I would also say that what’s said in ads isn’t necessarily indicative of the horse’s talent or temperament. Many, many ads say “safe enough for an ammy, talented enough for a pro” and that simply can’t be true for all of those horses. I think people want to find that horse in their budget, but unless their budget is quite large, no dice.

[RockstarPony]

IMO a horse’s personality on the ground makes a big difference, too. People who pour their limited money and free time into one horse generally put a lot more value on having a horse that’s enjoyable to be around - whatever that might mean to them. I’ve seen some really difficult horses stick around in totally happy amateur homes just because they were fun to have around and not especially difficult to handle around the barn, and I’ve seen a few relatively simple rides totally flunk out because they were absolute dirtbags on the ground.

[SnicklefritzG]

Like with many topics, things come in degrees.

A horse that would be suitable for a beginner is easily classified as amateur friendly. However, not all amateur friendly horses would be suitable for a beginner.

I take lessons once a week on a GP schoolmaster who I would describe as amateur friendly. He is kind and patient. If the rider makes a mistake, he lets them figure it out and doesn’t get upset. The most that happens is that he decides to do one tempis, passage, or piaffe. It’s actually kind of funny. A beginner would be intimidated though because this is a powerful horse who has big gaits. Beginners might find him to be too much horse. Although professionals have ridden him, including some BNT’s, he’s not exclusively a professional ride.

Amateur friendly is a whole range from suitable for a beginner, to a horse who can take a joke, to one that might have a spook here and there but doesn’t need to be ridden or micromanaged carefully to get a good ride or performance out of it.

A professional ride in my opinion is a horse like Hicksted who was a handful, and whom I believe Eric Lamaze almost gave up on at one point. Verdades also was quite difficult as a youngster according to some articles I read, where Laura Graves said she too almost wanted to give up. I seem to recall the same thing being said of Reiner Klimke’s horse Ahlerich.

[Edre]

@SnicklefritzG, I recall hearing a similar thing about Verdades. She apparently had him out for someone to sell but no one was capable of riding him, so Laura Graves kept working with him. He’s most definitely one of the horses out there that I think that calling him a “professional ride” is a really accurate fit. I can think of a few others - Parzival? I think was notorious for being a bit of a challenge to work with. And this one is several years past by this point but Weltall, with Martin Shaudt I guess had a reputation for being a bit emotional and I believe that kept him out of showing more than what he did (which was a shame - I really enjoyed watching that horse).

On a broader sense, I think it’s interesting all the distinctions that we’re seeing here. Beyond the fact that there’s different terms (that can both overlap or not, but still relate) like schoolmaster, amateur friendly, professional ride (and then I suppose “husband friendly” and “packer” both might tie into this as well), and then the distinction of under saddle behavior vs on the ground and how it relates to create a big picture.

I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts on this! Lots to think about.

[xQHDQ]

@Libby2563

Follow-up question for everyone: when I see a horse marketed as “amateur-friendly,” I tend to assume that it’s also likely to be somewhat less talented than the ones marketed towards pros (though sometimes they are marketed for both)–do other people think the same thing?

It’s the fancy, amateur-friendly horse that costs the most, regardless of what level of training. If the non-fancy, amateur-friendly horse costs $20,000, the fancy pro horse costs $25,000, then the fancy amateur horse costs $30,000.

[SnicklefritzG]

You can have fancy, sane, cheap. Pick two

[MsM]

In dressage horses, I think “amateur friendly” has different meanings for a Training/first level horse compared to a PSG/I-1 horse.
I would expect the low level horse to be easy in most ways. It would be easy to live with, not require continuous reminders to stay at that level, not quirky in the ride it requires, and nearly bombproof without being worked down. It may or may not require a correct ride, but its objections to poor riding are not violent.
For an upper level horse, there is much less of an expectation of calmness. Instead it is more about reacting properly to correct aids without being ridiculously picky. It would be a horse with show mileage who is generally predictable at shows. Not a “testing” horse who often is testing boundaries and requires lots of pro reinforcement. While it may act out at times, it is not an explosive type. And, yeah, usually it connotes a horse that lacks some “brilliance” to get the top scores. If they have the pizzazz then the price…:eek:

[xQHDQ]

@SnicklefritzG

You can have fancy, sane, cheap. Pick two

YES!!!

[ivy62]

This thread is so interesting to me as I am the Ammy! I have gotten more tense as I have gotten older but I have been lucky recently with the horses I have had.
The first schoolmaster I got was really an event horse. Went to intermediate with a pro but spent most of his life doing prelim with a kid. By the time he got to me he was dressage only which was fine. He had a great brain and was uncomplicated to ride. The most important thing to me is good brakes. If I get nervous I know I can stop the horse before getting run off with that is the number one thing. He went around nicely and could do up to second level. When competing he got score in the low 30’s in dressage, remember it was eventing. he made it so easy to learn. He was well schooled and classically, sensitive but not hot. He gave me so much confidence. Then we lost him in a pasture accident… Try and replace that! and he was free!
second schoolmaster… Lovely Trakehner gelding. GREAT brain! SAFE! NO bolt, buck or bite. the trade off was he is very sensitive in the mouth especially at the canter. He also went to intermediate with a pro and spent his life at training level eventing. My trainer said it would take a long time to learn how to ride him but she rides him low key and not always put together. We have learned slowly how to ride him. He tolerates our mistakes but certainly is not for a beginner. He has made us have more finesse and quiet with our bodies. I know when I ride another horse they appreciate it but I do not like a push ride! He has go but he is neither hot or spooky just forward. This one was under 5k
I may have had a hard time learning to ride him well but I feel safe when I get up there. It is about me having fun and feeling safe not about the ribbons…
Yes, each one was stepping down from higher level competition and needed some maintenance but they have a ton to teach us
I dread the day I have to find another…

[outerbanks77]

@SnicklefritzG

You can have fancy, sane, cheap. Pick two

And don’t forget sound. You still only get to pick two though.

I have two four year old mares, and I’d say one is ammy-friendly, and the other is not. The ammy friendly one is very green, but as an average amateur, I feel totally comfortable bringing her along with zero pro help. I can tinker with a new training technique on her and she’ll respond if I get it right, but not get irritated or upset if I get it wrong. She is still a 4 yo that gets nervous and sometimes spooks or does a little 4-stride bolt, but she’s very tractable and comes back under control rather than escalating. There is no playing detective to figure out which horse is coming out of the stall each day.

The other mare is out with a pro and I’m still on the fence about whether she’ll come back and stay with me. She’s not a hot or nasty horse, but has her quirks and is very sensitive about things on her body in particular. An example is that last time I went to see her (trainer is 2 hours away), an apprentice was riding her in a western saddle when I got there. We unsaddled and put my dressage saddle on her. She didn’t freak out, but was definitely “on the lookout” because of the change, and took about 20 minutes of free lunging before she was comfy again. Fair enough, since she hadn’t had an English saddle on in about a year. But then we changed her back to the western saddle and it was the same thing all over again, even though she’d been riding around comfortably in it less than an hour before. It’s taken the trainer several months to get her to allow much in the way of leg or contact under saddle as well. With this trainer’s endless patience, she has not had one of her explosive episodes in a long time, but we know she can explode, and that it’s not pretty when she does. If I had all the time in the world, I think I could manage her quirks, but as an ammy with a full-time job, who wants to relax a bit when I got to the barn after work, I’m not sure if this is the type of stuff I want to deal with, so I would class her as not ammy friendly, though I hope she’ll relax and become easier. On the ground she’s lovely and nice to be around.

[Edre]

@SnicklefritzG

You can have fancy, sane, cheap. Pick two

@outerbanks77 Adding to your “sound” I will also submit “schooled/trained”!

And of course, you may still only have two. :lol:

[mwh]

This is a fascinating thread.

I am a definite amateur rider and I consider my new young horse to be very ammy friendly. That said, he lacks training and education.

Reasons why I consider him to be ammy friendly:

• very kind friendly nature
• responds quickly to praise and messages he is doing what he is asked to do
• very trainable and smart - he is always looking to be told how to do the right thing and is responsive (of course, hs has to be continuously reminded but the gaps inbetween are gradually getting longer)
• calm and predictable temperament - he does process outside stimulus calmly and does not spend all his time looking for a reason to spook or shy.

At the same time, he is intolerant and grumpy with a rider that has a grippy lower leg and he becomes anxious and stressed if you hold or force him into a frame or outline - but will go willingly forward and round into a soft hand. Within these clear parameters he is happy, forward, mostly soft and relaxed (submission with relaxation is a work in progress!) He did have a bad start we believe, with a pro rider for whom he was intended to be her next FEI horse, so is whip shy under saddle and does not like (for pretty understandable reasons) aggressive and abrupt riding styles.

Lovely on the ground and a beautiful personality.

He’s also very rideable - albeit ‘big’ paces to which I am still learning to adjust. I can see how with time and correct classical training how they can become even bigger and more poweful as he learns how to use his behind and collect. That will come with time and lots of patience and a little bit of luck but from moment I tried him (and despite anxiety of riding a different horse for first time in many years under the eye of a top pro) I just felt that this was a really fun horse to ride - and confident that he would only improve as he developed balance and straightness and as his training advanced.

So it’s for these reasons I felt from the outset he was ammy friendly - albeit not for a beginner which to me is a very different proposition.

Thanks for all the contributions! All the different perspectives are making me consider this question in different ways.

[xQHDQ]

So… the two biggest lessons here:

1. You can have fancy, sane, cheap, sound - pick 2.
2. An amateur-friendly horse is not necessarily a beginner horse.

[merrygoround]

The horse that calmly does what the rider was asking ( in dressage), not what the rider thought they were asking. These horses are a bit of a psychologist as sometimes they have to figure out several conflicting messages… they usually choose the easiest way out .:winkgrin: