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Developing collection thread...

Dressage
#1

I don’t feel like the COTH Greenbeans thread is the right place for me to post anymore!

So how about a thread discussing our work getting horses collecting? :slight_smile:

My 6 year old was trying to sit a lot last year, but didn’t have the thrust necessary to keep moving while doing so. We went back to work on developing more forward, and now are revisiting collection. Unlike last year, it now includes more bounce and spring off the ground. She’s been VERY good about it, and it is quite challenging to her muscularly… but she LOVES it. Her back swings more and her ears get floppy as she focuses on using the muscles to hold herself as she wants.

Our biggest problem right now is me! I am so mentally exhausted after our rides because of the level of support she needs to keep her balance right now. The constant half halt, bounce in my seat to remind her to keep swinging, activate hind legs with my legs, push forward if she loses that, slow tempo with my abs, give if she earns that, bend, straighten, keep haunches supporting weight, etc., etc., that is riding more like every 1/4 step instead of every stride… after a lesson my brain hurts! My mare walks out happy, a bit sweaty, and goes running and inciting riots in the herd once I turn her back out. She’s super happy, and I’ll get there, too. Because gosh darnit, her improvement and happiness is just plain FUN!

#2

My new guy is young, but we start the responses that will lead to collection from the beginning. That way, collection isn’t an event, but his responses to my body are ingrained so that when we start doing the collecting exercises, it’s not a huge change in the way that he’s already being asked to go.

So, what does this mean? When I drive with my hip or give a little leg, I need to feel a response, even if it’s tiny. Every short side, I rev him a bit, so that working a little harder on the short side is ingrained from the get go. The reasoning for this is because lateral work always takes a bit of impulsion out of the horse by the end of the long wall, so the short side is used to refresh the gait and half halt.

In the very small bits of sitting that we do, if I press forward with my back a bit, I have to feel something. And, from the beginning, he’s learning to follow my hand - so if I give down, he follows and stretches, if I hh up and drive a bit, he changes the angle of his neck. And, because collection is not about slowing down, he needs to learn to drive and work harder with small movements from me.

And, because I HAVE to brag on my boy…

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/Miro3_zpsuhxikmxf.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/Miro_zpsyvvp94qm.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/miroCanter_zpsn7scxslw.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/MiroWOW_zpsla9rmz85.jpg

#3

Netg, you sound like a very skilled and thinking rider! Sounds like you are doing a wonderful and very correct job. She sounds like a talented young horse! To give yourself a break, mix it up, have her thinking, working it out herself…could you implement some lunge cavaletti sessions? Spaced for collected and lengthening trot work, also canter collected and lengthening work. Some simple galloping outside, hill work, 20m collected mixed with extended…are other variations to build strength and skill for collection.

#4

[QUOTE=Reddfox;8542004]
My new guy is young, but we start the responses that will lead to collection from the beginning. That way, collection isn’t an event, but his responses to my body are ingrained so that when we start doing the collecting exercises, it’s not a huge change in the way that he’s already being asked to go.

So, what does this mean? When I drive with my hip or give a little leg, I need to feel a response, even if it’s tiny. Every short side, I rev him a bit, so that working a little harder on the short side is ingrained from the get go. The reasoning for this is because lateral work always takes a bit of impulsion out of the horse by the end of the long wall, so the short side is used to refresh the gait and half halt.

In the very small bits of sitting that we do, if I press forward with my back a bit, I have to feel something. And, from the beginning, he’s learning to follow my hand - so if I give down, he follows and stretches, if I hh up and drive a bit, he changes the angle of his neck. And, because collection is not about slowing down, he needs to learn to drive and work harder with small movements from me.

And, because I HAVE to brag on my boy…

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/Miro3_zpsuhxikmxf.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/Miro_zpsyvvp94qm.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/miroCanter_zpsn7scxslw.jpg
http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j325/dresseur626/MiroWOW_zpsla9rmz85.jpg[/QUOTE]

Oh, for sure she has been building this direction since she was started under saddle. She’s just recently had a dramatic increase in strength due to maturity rather than the gradual development from work. (In addition to the gradual development.) So now I have to learn to help her balance as she learns to use it. :slight_smile:

I wish we had somewhere safe to gallop and hills to work on! We do lots of lengthening work, playing, trail riding, etc. She LOVES the work, and I want to keep it that way. :slight_smile: I have very, very good guidance from my trainer which helps.

It’s funny, this was never a stage with my gelding who was already physically mature and has a natural very lifted in front uphill balance. Instead with him it was years of developing swing and suspension my mare naturally has. Different work for different horses. :slight_smile:

#5

PS: I hope that you didn’t think that I was implying that you weren’t doing what I was talking about :slight_smile: I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen pics of your mare and she’s lovely! I can’t wait until my guy is mature enough to really start playing with it - but I think that my guy is a bit more like your gelding.

#6

OMG, this is where we are too! My mare is very happy to go along as a First Level horse, forward and reaching, but the 2nd level work/collected work is harder for her. We’ve also been slowly building strength - she lost a lot of time (and strength) in rehab, and I have to keep reminding myself, don’t get greedy, she IS behind where she should be, but not too badly… Losing almost 2 years to rehab sucks!

I am also finding that I have to RIDE a lot more - she who is so forward is actually stalling out now that the work is harder. So I am playing with a lot of short stints of lateral work (maybe 15- 20 meters of SI, then a 20 meter half circle to get her really forward, then 10 or 20 meters of Travers) - followed with more forward on circles, and with LOTS of transitions to keep her sharp off my leg.

I have played with ground poles - and that does help too.

Sadly for us - my mare HATES trails - I do have some hills, but she is not so great on the trails, so I haven’t taken advantage of that option.

#7

I just wanted to clarify someone hilariously pointed out this:

bounce in my seat to remind her to keep swinging

NOT actually bouncing on the saddle. Ouch, to my poor horse if that were what I chose to do! My trainer calls it internal bounce - using the core to lighten and “lift” which we know from physics my seat isn’t truly doing, but allowing her room to move upward while staying touching the saddle.

Not bouncing and pounding on her back… :slight_smile:

#8

[QUOTE=netg;8542235]
I just wanted to clarify someone hilariously pointed out this:

NOT actually bouncing on the saddle. Ouch, to my poor horse if that were what I chose to do! My trainer calls it internal bounce - using the core to lighten and “lift” which we know from physics my seat isn’t truly doing, but allowing her room to move upward while staying touching the saddle.

Not bouncing and pounding on her back… :)[/QUOTE]

I knew what you meant. :wink:

#9

[QUOTE=netg;8541892]

I am so mentally exhausted after our rides because of the level of support she needs to keep her balance right now. [/QUOTE]

Sounds like you’re doing a good job. Collection requires a positive tension, and it’s mental as well as physical! It sounds like you’re tired but happy, so I wouldn’t change what you’re doing. If you need a break, one of my favorite “simple” exercises is a flowing 3-loop serpentine. You can use it to review with her rhythm and steady tempo, bending and staying balanced especially as you change bend. Basically you are letting her do “easier” work, but requiring more of her. Use the simple days to remind her that it’s her job to stay in the tempo, balance, bend, etc you’re in! The more established a horse is in an exercise, the more they are like clay in your hands. They stay where you put them!

#10

Yeah, I’m there, too. My coming eight year old now has the strength to collect and really sit and is fun and enjoying starting p/p. My coming 6 year old. Ouch.

The younger one is a much bigger, stronger, pushy horse and going through the lovely five year old stage which I hate. She’s transitioning from forward and straight, which she has DOWN, to developing collection, which is HARD. And she is so big and bouncy, I, who have been riding a few years, cannot sit her trot if she’s not collected. I feel like a bouncing fool. So, I am on the getting her strong enough to stay collected and through the back so I CAN sit her trot.

Too bad you don’t have hills. It’s nature’s way of developing collection. Trotting and cantering up as well as collecting down and really making them sit. The rain and mud only helps as they have to sit and relax and move or they slip. In the arena I am trying to use her five year old complete lack of attention span and I have to look and spook at the pole we just went by 50 time against her. Instead of letting her head come up and stiffen, I make her go forward and let her canter in a circle and force her to collect and carry herself because of the circle. She can use all of that energy to build muscle.

The other thing I’m doing is giving myself a break in the sitting trot, which I cannot sit unless it’s collected, and she’s not strong enough to keep it long. So, when I sit, it’s for shorter times where she has to collect. If she loses it going straight, I circle, shoulder in, leg yield or half pass to force the collection. So, all of the time we’re sitting trot, it’s collected. Interestingly, I can sit her medium trot, which is HUGE, but because she’s through the back, I can do it.

I’ve also been just trying something else the last few days. I normally don’t ride with a whip, and not with her because forward is not an issue. But, I’ve been trying riding with it and using it to tap, tap her but to encourage her to sit and carry every time I feel her lose the collection. It’s working better than I thought. I have not been launched off. Again, it’s forcing her to work a lot harder, so much shorter time periods.

I do notice my abs have been a lot more sore, though, because right now it’s takin a lot more work for me to stay with her. It’s an interesting stage where as a rider you have to work so much harder because the horse isn’t strong enough. It’s such a relief to get past it, but it sure makes you realize the difference.

#11

[QUOTE=netg;8541892]
I don’t feel like the COTH Greenbeans thread is the right place for me to post anymore!

So how about a thread discussing our work getting horses collecting? :slight_smile:

My 6 year old was trying to sit a lot last year, but didn’t have the thrust necessary to keep moving while doing so. We went back to work on developing more forward, and now are revisiting collection. Unlike last year, it now includes more bounce and spring off the ground. She’s been VERY good about it, and it is quite challenging to her muscularly… but she LOVES it. Her back swings more and her ears get floppy as she focuses on using the muscles to hold herself as she wants.

Our biggest problem right now is me! I am so mentally exhausted after our rides because of the level of support she needs to keep her balance right now. The constant half halt, bounce in my seat to remind her to keep swinging, activate hind legs with my legs, push forward if she loses that, slow tempo with my abs, give if she earns that, bend, straighten, keep haunches supporting weight, etc., etc., that is riding more like every 1/4 step instead of every stride… after a lesson my brain hurts! My mare walks out happy, a bit sweaty, and goes running and inciting riots in the herd once I turn her back out. She’s super happy, and I’ll get there, too. Because gosh darnit, her improvement and happiness is just plain FUN![/QUOTE]

Do you have any videos?

One thing that might help you mentally is to improve your own physical fitness. Do you have any time to go to a gym or otherwise strengthen yourself? Dressage is obviously a mental ride but if you’re steps ahead on the fitness, it can help alot with your own mental game and your own balance as a rider.

#12

BTDT,

My coming 7 year old seems (is) similar to your guys. I don’t have a covered arena so I’m prone to weather issues, but my guy is difficult to sit to when he’s not together, easy when he is. Unfortunately for me, he has shoes and can be slippy in mud (and our arena has a clay base which is also slippy when soupy) so he’s not a confident, forward ride in these conditions. Nor do I want him to be, as one good slip can cause a massive problem (our terrain is clay based and I’ve seen him fall when galloping at a fenceline and trying to stop in his pasture). I am starting him over jumping grids as a way to build muscle and he likes this change. We also have horse-steps on the property and I’m working those more now, too.

Lateral work has been instrumental to controlling his legs. He learned the mechanics so quickly and now he’s building the muscle with the exercises to sit more and carry weight and give more range. Sitting is a challenge for him because he hasn’t had to. But I must say his work ethic is FINALLY revealing itself. He is happiest when he’s working and he really wants to please (he’s still spooky, but he his work ethic is vastly improved and he thinks a whole lot better these days). I also generally don’t ride with a whip but I’ve been teaching him to lift legs on the ground in response to it pointing towards teaching him that the whip means “engage the hind end” and he runs on the line quite well with a whip.

It took him 7 years but his brain is finally starting to catch up with his body. And his skinny self is FINALLY filling out some! Geez!

#13

S/i and H/i can aid dramatically in strengthening a horse so that collection becomes easy. An occasional gallop up hills is also useful. Sadly not everyone is blessed with the terrain for that. If necessary start slow with your lateral work, better 10 good correct active steps than a arena length of incorrect.

Rider strength is important too. You need so much core strength in your half halts and in holding the forward while increasing the energy as you don’t want the forward to run forward, you must hold it, while carrying and lifting you.

#14

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8543529]
S/i and H/i can aid dramatically in strengthening a horse so that collection becomes easy. An occasional gallop up hills is also useful. Sadly not everyone is blessed with the terrain for that. If necessary start slow with your lateral work, better 10 good correct active steps than a arena length of incorrect.

Rider strength is important too. You need so much core strength in your half halts and in holding the forward while increasing the energy as you don’t want the forward to run forward, you must hold it, while carrying and lifting you.[/QUOTE]

This is the best answer so far. Collection is about teaching the horse to take weight on its hind legs, which involves a lot of strength. Collection is NOT about slowing the horse down; it’s about taking the energy you have in a very active working trot or canter and gradually compressing it into a smaller outline; just a few steps at a time.

Transitions (GOOD quality transitions) between and within the gaits will help teach the horse to take more weight behind. In the transitions, whether up or down, you must be able to get a quick response with the horse staying on the aids at all times. In the beginning, you can only expect a few collected steps at a time, and they should be rewarded generously.

The shoulder-in is the cornerstone of collection, but it has to be a good quality shoulder-in with the right amount of bend, angle, and energy. Again, just a few steps and reward the horse by going straight or onto a circle.

Hill work is good for helping with collection, but there seems to be some misunderstanding here; it doesn’t teach the horse collection. Instead, it helps develop the strength in the hindquarters so that he can collect when asked.

If the rider is exhausted when trying to collect the horse, there are several things to consider: does the rider really understand what collection is and how to achieve it, is the horse strong enough to collect, is the rider fit enough (in addition to having the requisite knowledge) to collect the horse, is the horse being asked for too many steps of collection for his level of training and fitness.

ETA: also like Reddfox’s post. Take a look at her photos, especially the last one. You can see that there is a lot of energy in that trot which is absolutely essential to getting good collected work. Nice rider position in all the photos.

#15

Reddfox, don’t shoot me for using you as an example, but you did post the photos! :slight_smile: Anyway, one thing that strikes me in these photos and is so important is correct rider position. If you aren’t sitting correctly, you are inhibiting your horse’s ability to perform well. Reddfox has a good position with long legs and her hands in front of the saddle (they’re a tiny bit back in the canter picture, but this photo was taken in the moment when the horse’s shoulders were highest and neck shortest, so it’s to be expected). What her position tells me is that her horse is honestly and willingly in front of her leg, and she has opened the door sufficiently with her hands to enable him to use himself well. Any time you feel that your legs are getting shorter or your heels are coming up, your horse is not reliably in front of your leg. Forget about trying to fix the horse and fix yourself first because that is the crux of the problem. This is why good trainers nag so much about position. Not only does a good position make it possible for a horse to perform well, but it makes your job easier. This is also why strength training (for you) and core exercises are so valuable.

#16

What suzy said. :slight_smile:

#17

[QUOTE=merrygoround;8543529]
S/i and H/i can aid dramatically in strengthening a horse so that collection becomes easy. An occasional gallop up hills is also useful. Sadly not everyone is blessed with the terrain for that. If necessary start slow with your lateral work, better 10 good correct active steps than a arena length of incorrect.

Rider strength is important too. You need so much core strength in your half halts and in holding the forward while increasing the energy as you don’t want the forward to run forward, you must hold it, while carrying and lifting you.[/QUOTE]

It’s been about a year since SI finally became a gymnastic exercise for her - before that she didn’t have the strength, and we kept them shallow for teaching her aids and just patiently waited for her to be ready to use it to get the inside hind engaged. :slight_smile: We now do lots, and that in itself isn’t bad.

My exhaustion is mental, not physical. My gelding naturally has the lift my mare is just learning, so I never had to have the level of concentration just to help her figure out how to balance when he was developing collection. He is, however, MUCH harder to ride physically - his gaits have a nice extra twist to his back that make them extra hard to sit, and only possible when he’s truly using himself over his topline. He was the one who set me on developing core strength. It makes it so as I work to focus, it’s very easy to do the physical part of riding my mare. :slight_smile:

It’s fascinating noting the horse in front of your leg aspect on my mare who is very forward. I thought she was always in front of my leg, but we definitely do some transitions or go to mediums if she starts to get behind my leg. As much as she is loving the collected work, she tends to want to stay in front of my leg and attentive now, which helps. :slight_smile:

My gelding who I noted above is harder to ride is also FAR harder to keep in front of my leg. But he also is only about twice as hard to ride when he is in front of my leg vs 10 times as hard when he’s not. Good incentive to get him there. :wink:

#18

[QUOTE=J-Lu;8542765]
We also have horse-steps on the property and I’m working those more now, too.[/QUOTE]

Pleas explain - what are these magical things called horse steps? I have never heard of them! I feel deprived!

#19

Suzy thank you!! I work very hard to get better and better in my position and it translates immediately to my horse and the others that I ride!

And being in front of the leg and the seat is IMO vital to collection and beginning collection. They always have to have forward intent so that you can slowly reshape that into them carrying more weight behind. I believe that you are training responses at first, which then over time develop into the finished horse… But if the horse doesn’t respond, you don’t have much to work with.

#20

Reddfox, you and your horse are a lovely combination and look like you have a great partnership.

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