Diann Langer’s abuse article

[Demerara_Stables]

I think it would be! In fact, I try to avoid the hunters when at all possible. No offense to the good hunter riders and trainers out there, but rewarding something that goes around perfectly quiet all the time isn’t exactly my idea of what I want to strive for in competition. 🤷

ETA before I get flamed, yes, I do realize that the point of the hunters is to have a consistent rhythmic pace with quality movement and quality jump. But unfortunately in the junior and amateur divisions, the robotic looking dead quiet horse gets the ribbons in a lot of cases.

[jvanrens]

@Demerara_Stables

But unfortunately in the junior and amateur divisions, the robotic looking dead quiet horse gets the ribbons in a lot of cases.

Yeah, that’s been a common complaint for a couple of decades.

[fivestrideline]

It’s getting better. At least around here. But I agree that a lot of the time I don’t love the “average” pinning round - I love hunters done well and I love riding MY hunter.

As with a lot of competitions that are judged on subjective measures, if X wins, then taking X to the extreme must win even more… or that’s how it goes. If slow moving, low headed horses win rail classes in XYZ division, then even slower and even lower starts the become the standard. Or if big, flashy gaits get high test scores, then bigger flashier gaits become the standard. A lot of people will do almost anything to get a competitive edge, and often there are minimal consequences (or none at all)… and here we are.

I also think that yet another “watch out for abuse!! Things need to change!!” article feels hollow when you’re standing here watching the status quo continue and USEF just stand around being useless. I’d like to see some teeth to the organization - and for them to actually be used. Even just permanently banning some of the worst offenders we already know about would feel better than yet another article. I agree with a lot that was said, but maybe I’m cynical. The whole time I was just thinking “cool. Are we actually going to see anything change though, even if people report?”

[Demerara_Stables]

@fivestrideline

I’d like to see some teeth to the organization - and for them to actually be used. Even just permanently banning some of the worst offenders we already know about would feel better than yet another article.

Exactly my thoughts

[Aussie_2020]

I enjoy watching the outdoor hunter classes from years ago. The jumps were exciting and the horses had a big pace. (I’m sure there was abuse during that time, I’m only referring to the recent pokey class comments.)

[skydy]

@Jealoushe

Why can’t these trainers just teach people to actually ride???

Getting away from complaints about hunter judging and thinking further along this line, I’ve been watching the Horsemastership clinic (it’s too bad that the audio for Beezie’s session was so awful) and seeing how much difference instruction makes in how the horses go for their riders (the grey horse is a good example among many.) As you know, the riders are all successful EQ and/or junior jumper riders and they still have so much to learn.

At this point in time and even when they age out, they aren’t qualified to be giving more than basic lessons when they have so much to learn themselves, and I think that was DiAnn Langer’s point, about riders considering themselves a “pro” when they age out at 18.

There are too many “trainers”, riders, and owners who don’t know what they are doing, and education can help. It is when people just want to participate without putting in their due diligence that dubious trainers are able to get them as clients and teach them poorly. I do think ignorance is an issue, along with outright abusers.

Nothing will change unless USEF really cracks down in the punishment of rule breakers.

Schooling shows will always be available for those who can’t or won’t take USEF rules seriously and that’s too bad because many people begin showing at the unrated level, but that is the subject for a different thread and can only be solved on a local level.

[Djones]

Apprenticeship til age 25 maybe?

Certification should matter but it never will. I know trainers who don’t see, can’t see, obvious lameness - they think the horse is just quiet and good natured. As my farrier ruefully lamented to me once " she’s too crippled to run off, not a bad thing for a kids horse"…if they required real education to get it done and hang a shingle it couldn’t hurt.

[skydy]

I wish. I’ve seen too many know nothing trainers in my life. I was lucky not to have been taught by them.

Until USEF gets serious nothing will be done. I know the U.S. is huge, but other NFs have taken the issue seriously and imposed basic qualifications for professionals. It can be done, but it will take guts and leadership.

We’ll see if USEF is capable.

[OverandOnward]

@skydy

… but it will take guts and leadership.

Where do we get those things? Asking for a friend. /s

As an outsider to hunters, it seems that guts/leadership are something people like to talk about, but don’t take to well if they actually make it into primary decision positions.

There is a reason that so much of the selection process, starting from very low levels, tends to filter out those qualities. Rather than identifying them early, and bringing them along.

The status quo may be bad. But everyone knows how it works. Change disrupts the process that people already know, good or bad. Then people are no longer sure what will get them what they want. Championships. Qualifications. Etc.

[Long_Time_Lurker]

If owners don’t receive consequences too (suspensions, their name published on the suspended list along with their trainer, etc.)there is no incentive for them to be on the lookout for things a trainer might do that would get them in trouble too. No more “don’t ask, don’t tell”.

[173north]

@fivestrideline

I’d like to see some teeth to the organization - and for them to actually be used. Even just permanently banning some of the worst offenders we already know about would feel better than yet another article. I agree with a lot that was said, but maybe I’m cynical.

I would love to see a three strikes rule, where three drug or welfare violations result in a lifetime ban or ten year suspension. Or some framework where sanctions are increasingly severe with each violation: first is a $10k fine and 12 month suspension, second is a $20k fine and 24 month suspension, etc.

So many of these “bad actors” have been staying just ahead of the drug testing for decades, and when they slip up every few years they just pay their fine, serve their 6 month suspension and then get right back to it. On that note, I think previous violations should be visible when you view a member’s profile on the USEF website…

[oldernewbie]

Some ideas from an old fart…

Talk to people from outside the h/j discipline. Arab people have dealt with abuse, especially abuse during in hand classes, since the 1980s. What we used to see in the ring then would turn your stomach. It has taken forever to get some basic, sensible changes made to correct what used to be considered normal. It might be useful to ask some long time Arab stewards, judges, and trainers how this was accomplished. It is far from over (I am not naive) and I’m sure some insiders can tell you horror stories yet today. But at least you don’t generally see horses falling to their knees, getting continuously shanked, or covered in welts at a show. During the time period they kind of got a grip on this I was out of the horse show world being a mom. Somebody did something - I still dislike in hand classes but I’m not horrified when I watch these days.

Possibly even more instructive - go talk to some AQHA folks. You don’t even want to know what they do/did to some of those poor horses - do people who show AQHA think it’s under control these days? Do they think it’s even wrong? What are they doing to try and curb the worst of it?

I do think that the necessity for cruel and unusual actions in the horse show world has driven people away. Regardless of the breed, it seems like there’s the traditional showing approach happening right alongside a saner (IMHO) showing approach. Main ring Arab vs sport horse Arab, western pleasure vs ranch riding etc. When a discipline becomes a caricature of itself, it seems like extreme measures become important to succeed. And then the folks who don’t care to participate split off.

I love horses and love showing, but some of this <> needs to be cut off. We’re not going to survive if it isn’t.

[Demerara_Stables]

Oh, I’m not saying they shouldn’t also receive punishment but focusing on them as the recipients of punishment is not where the blame should lie.

[skydy]

@OverandOnward

Where do we get those things? Asking for a friend. /s

[skydy]

Unfortunately this will be an uphill battle as long as USHJA and USEF committees are comprised of many current BN trainers and competitors.

USEF really needs to do some thinking and reorganizing.

I wish Mary Knowlton hadn’t been ousted as USHJA president. She was and is, a good advocate for horse and junior competitor welfare.

ETA I was mistaken about Mary’s “ouster”.

[MissMillyMolly]

USEF should mandate annual animal welfare training for every owner and competitor, and for parents of competitors under 18. Half of these people don’t even know what to look out for, or the questions to ask a trainer (see poor Humble). A little education might at least get clients to have a sharper eye around the barn. Let’s make it a tiny bit harder for trainers to tell clients the abuse is just how it’s done. Let’s explicitly tell parents that a drugged horse is a dangerous horse and that they are putting their children at risk if they are not taking the time to ask questions and find reputable trainers. I can promise you most parents of juniors have NO CLUE that this is even happening right under their noses.

Agree that suspending owners (and all of their competing horses! ) is another good step. Owners will quickly learn which trainers are safe and which have repeated violations.

Call out trainers when they get caught! Publicize violation lists at the show grounds, mandate they be posted in the office. Whatever it takes for the not very clued in client to see for themselves. Yes I know most don’t get caught, but some do and it should be more of an embarrassment for them when they do.

Judging is another step. If people are literally killing their horses just a little, they aren’t taking those risks to lose. Judges should play a role in marking down horses that go around like they’re drugged (whether they are or aren’t). Make abuse less attractive by awarding horses with a little sparkle and personality. I don’t see how you can talk abuse in the pursuit of competition without taking about WHY the most common tactics are used.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

This.

If the USEF really cared, they would have overnight stewards patrolling, monitoring and documenting the evidence themselves.

Easier to turn a wilfully blind eye….

[Ghazzu]

@Demerara_Stables

focusing on them as the recipients of punishment is not where the blame should lie.

It is exactly where the blame should lie.
If you are the owner of a living creature, it is your obligation to assure its well-being.
Period.

[skydy]

@MissMillyMolly

Judging is another step. If people are literally killing their horses just a little, they aren’t taking those risks to lose. Judges should play a role in marking down horses that go around like they’re drugged (whether they are or aren’t). Make abuse less attractive by awarding horses with a little sparkle and personality. I don’t see how you can talk abuse in the pursuit of competition without taking about WHY the most common tactics are used.

“WHY” completely depends on the discipline. Jumping, Dressage, and Eventing have their own aims. This isn’t an issue with Hunters only in USEF.

[Ghazzu]

@skydy

This isn’t an issue with Hunters only in USEF.

It isn’t.
Any time you put an animal and human ego in close proximity, you will have people using unethical methods to win.
doesn’t matter what the discipline is.