Diann Langer’s abuse article

[skydy]

Thanks. I remember more clearly now.

Mary has been a good influence, along with many other long standing members of USEF. It’s too bad that the PTB don’t take advantage of the many experienced people that are members who care about horse and rider welfare.

USEF has a deep group of experienced, good people, (not necessarily those on it’s committees) and if they don’t change and utilize those people (and quickly), none of their hopes to be looked upon favorably by the public will come to fruition.

[hey101]

I think a big problem is that abuse is not defined or standardized- one persons abuse is another person’s normal method. Across the disciplines

Charlotte video- I was not too bothered by that except for the kid on the horse that had such a death grip on the reins that the horse would have been well within its rights to stand up when encouraged (perhaps aggressively YMMV) to go forward. The punishment for that one far did not fit the crime especially as NO other video came out of the woodwork and video owner was shown to have their own egregious stuff. FEI really came out badly in that one, IMO.

Andrew McConnen- battering the horse over the head, multiple videos by multiple parties, for exactly what outcome? Still radio silence on that one. Again FEI came out looking badly and on quite the opposite side of the coin from Charlotte, again IMO.

On the Yellowstone thread in Off topic, a sidebar on how reining trainers have a rider “school” a horse for an hour or two at the lope and then hand it over for the “trainer” , not a word of protest and to me it seemed like the hunter equivalent of LTD. No real outcry.

I myself have my own clear parameters of handling a horse, not even talking about under saddle, but we get a lot of horses into our place that come in with NO manners. It walks over me exactly once and then I will go boss mare for about 30-60 seconds and that might involve shanking, backing, etc. 95% of the time that horse realizes who is alpha and the problem is solved, with some very minor tune up/ reinforcement. Was I abusing the horse for that 60 seconds? Not by my safety standards. I was clearly delineating boundaries to an animal that understands lead or be led and it understood who was in charge. And for ever after the horse and I get along just fine and owner is happy (omg he is sooo happy here!) and so is horse.

It’s a tangled problem in the horse world butting up against the “general ignorant” population with all this social license to operate stuff- heck go read the Foxhunting thread in this forum in someone who posted who clearly had no idea on what foxhunting actually is and so many people posted very thoughtful replies.

Honestly I fear we are doomed in the horse world. In the long term

[paw]

People might not be drugging to lose, but not all drugged horses win.

I got myself into a situation where I was (unknowingly, bad on me I guess) riding a horse that was so drugged that he couldn’t see straight and I wound up with a separated shoulder. If I had known that he’d had a cocktail, there’s no way that I would have gone into the class, but I was a clueless amateur and trusted my trainer…

So yes, test #1 and #2, but test others, too. And owners should set down with their horses - it would have been a lot better for me.

[MHM]

@paw

People might not be drugging to lose, but not all drugged horses win.

There are plenty of horses who are not at the shows to win. They are there to safely cart around their beginner riders or novice riders or nervous riders or what have you.

Those horses also deserve to be protected from abusive drugging practices by getting tested.

[StormyDay]

I very much disagree with requiring licensing. First off, equestrian knowledge takes a really long time to develop. It’s not a 4 year degree. So what are you including? A test where they say abuse is bad? The people doing this know what they are doing is bad and they don’t care. Second, it is hard enough to get grooms and assistants without requiring them to have a license to be there.
Third, amateur riders are the backbone of the sport so let’s not make it any harder to get them to shows by requiring a license for them to compete. I seriously doubt there are any amateur riders out there that are just like ‘oh yeah, my trainer withholds water from my horse so I win. It’s totally fine!’ 99% of those amateur riders just don’t know that the trainer is doing something nefarious and the trainer is very good at hiding it.

I haven’t heard of gasoline or anything else in a bucket. I have heard to bleeding the horse and there’s definitely stuff you can inject that will sedate a horse that won’t test. The phenobarbital is a new one for me. What a stupid thing to do. I don’t know why anyone would want to get on an equine you have made purposely tired and try to jump something. I like not dying.

Class caps would be nice BUT I think it’s more of an unrated show issue than a rated show. Mostly an issue with trainers having too many students per horse.

Independent stewards is a good idea but maybe not super feasible. Maybe one steward who was like the horse show police who went around monitoring rings.

Independent night watch also seems very difficult to implement. Maybe instead if you visit the barn between certain hours (11pm to 4am maybe?) you must sign in and out and the night watch has to escort you to the stall and check on you throughout your visit.

Lounging is a scourge of horse shows. I think there needs to be a 30 minute cap per horse per day.

[skydy]

@StormyDay

I very much disagree with requiring licensing. First off, equestrian knowledge takes a really long time to develop. It’s not a 4 year degree.

The licensing requirement that would be Ms. Langer’s ideal, in reality could never happen to include grooms and amateurs. Those participants are not required to be licensed in countries where education requirements for trainers is the norm.

We have to begin somewhere ,and keeping unqualified people from “training” would be a good step in the right direction for USEF.

Again, we are discussing USEF rated shows, not schooling shows where USEF has no control. There will ,unfortunately, always be “trainers” whether USEF members or not, that are either purposefully ripping people off, or that are just clueless about their lack of riding and training ability, as are their students.

In the U.S. we have many unqualified and ignorant, as well as purposefully abusive trainers.
We need to start somewhere, and educating owners and riders how to choose a trainer I think has to be the first priority.

[starsandsun]

Well, true to a point. But many owners are brainwashed by their trainers that the horse MUST obey, MUST respond in the right way immediately. “Teach him a lesson” “straighten him out” “whip him in to shape” … these are well-used phrases that announce the underlying approval which is beat the shit out a horse to make it do what we want OR ELSE.

The day I quit working with a well-known trainer around here was the day he relentlessly and with extreme anger lunged my old horse until he was heaving because he was breaking in the canter. I got to the barn, saw that, went in, grabbed the lunge line and whip and threatened to beat him until he was dead.

[crackerjack]

Although I’m not in the US, Canada obviously has similar problems.

One of the bigger barns with the most successful hunter program in my area (amongst a couple others) is known to drug. Can I, as a very lowly ammy, with no proof except heresay do anything? Probably not. I have heard from a reliable source that the ponies are even drugged for lessons because heaven forbid they are a little up. The kids never learn how to ride anything that a robot. There have been medical issues in the horses due to “the help” they get. But this is all heresay so nothing can be done. I have witnessed the trainer continually canter a pony non stop for at least 20 minutes while I ring rode one morning. I had my doubts that the stewards would say anything and because of who it was the show organizers certainly would not have.

I also would like to see the top 3 or four in each division be drug tested. I’d say each class but that’s unrealistic. I’d like to see all placed horses in the derbies drug tested. If one has nothing to hide there should be no protest. Cost? Sure it would increase- however those who show at the gold shows and ride at those barns can surely afford it.

LTDing in the middle of the night? The security guards should be able to have the power to stop that.

Let’s also have more severe punishments for those found to be drugging. Horse, rider/guardian in the case of juniors, trainer, and owner get banned for a year for the first infraction. Yes I’m that mean. Teach all who are involved to take responsibility.

I’m really jaded about the reaction by EC and other governing bodies regarding the abuse. It’s a joke and nothing gets resolved. I didn’t like the Charlotte video, however, she reacted in the correct way and hasn’t denied her actions. It floors me that people like Andrew Mc, Cesar P, Helgastrad(sp?), and Isabelle Werth have not been held accountable. In my naive opinion they need to be permanently banned.

[MsM]

I think that a program on Horse Welfare similar to the Safe Sport model would be a positive step.
Clearly outline acceptable and unacceptable practices, both at the show and at home. Educate the owners and riders and trainers. No more “I didn’t think it was bad” and “He said everybody does it”

I agree with making the penalties for positive drug tests more severe. However, there should be some grace for those who reported giving bute, etc within the allowed withdrawal time, but the horse didnt metabolize it as quickly as average and there is a trace showing up on the test.

[dags]

Educate the owners, then hold them accountable.

Put a whole Surgeon’s General type warning in the prize lists and posters in the show office. Horrify them with some of the drastic lengths unscrupulous trainers go to (blood-letting would be an excellent wake-up call for most). Detail the long-term effects of some of these drugs. Post mug shots + details of the crimes for our worst offenders (looking at you, Kocher). And include a giant bolded list of the penalties they, the owner, LLC, or lease holder will incur if their horse is caught doped. Make them curious. Make them care. Make them suspicious. Most have no idea what’s going on. Bad actors rely on this ignorance, so we need to make it impossible to be ignorant.

Then embark on a giant Clean Sport campaign. Make voluntary drug tests (sans repercussions) available to suspicious owners. Make voluntary drug tests available to all and get a green sticker for your show number for a clean test. I realize that getting samples off to labs and such makes this a bit trickier than just sticking a tester in a cup of pee, but we have got to start thinking outside the box because nothing we have tried is working.

Licensing is an absolute joke, the worst offenders would have no problem clearing whatever hurdles it imposed. It’s more effective in countries where the actual government is involved, but that will never happen here.

Build a culture around Clean Sport, remove the excuse of ignorance, and come down hard on those writing the checks.

[Renn_aissance]

@LaurieB

Maybe I’m just cynical in my old age. Or maybe I’ve read too many articles like this one over the years–and seen little or no action from the governing body to take its own words seriously.

That’s exactly where I am on this. USEF, USHJA, put up or shut up. If you wanted to make a change you’d actually do it. We’re waiting.

I agree that there’s a complex network of factors that make this kind of horse abuse “attractive”… but if we try to fix the culture as a whole as our first step we will never finish the step or take a second one.

I’m with @dags (excellent post) about coming down like a ton of bricks on the owners AND the trainer. Create a tier list of medications that result in sanctions or bans so that we can differentiate “he didn’t metabolize a gram of bute as fast as expected” or “Cushings horse showed on Prascend without a TUE filed” from freaking pentobarbital, and then if we are throwing around sanctions and bans that have teeth, ban the trainer and sanction the owner on the first offense of horse abuse, and ban the owner on the second offense. You didn’t know the first time because your horse was under the care of someone else? Here’s your shot to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn, etc.

[findeight]

Dags, Clean Sport is a very good idea and might actually be something that can be done. When Safe Sport got started there was much hemming, hawing, what if’s, buts, excuses, victim shaming etc. etc, etc. It has been slow to catch on but people are now aware that we can do better. It started the open conversation…

Far as testing winners….yeah, once word gets out testers are on the property, a whole lot of top tier horses scratch or their elite level riders have very rare “mistakes” on course, like stepping off a lead in a corner or burying it into the base of an oxer Ammy style. Ooops, my bad, sorry no ribbon.

Big stumbling block is an almost incestuous relationship between some BNTs who bring large strings to shows and those show managers who pay the official vets, stewards, judges, office help, night watch, security. Oh, speaking of vets some of those are not shining examples,

Retaliation is still a deterrent to saying something too. But we have to start someplace and following the Safe Sport model might be the way to go.

[StormyDay]

@dags

Educate the owners, then hold them accountable.

Put a whole Surgeon’s General type warning in the prize lists and posters in the show office. Horrify them with some of the drastic lengths unscrupulous trainers go to (blood-letting would be an excellent wake-up call for most). Detail the long-term effects of some of these drugs. Post mug shots + details of the crimes for our worst offenders (looking at you, Kocher). And include a giant bolded list of the penalties they, the owner, LLC, or lease holder will incur if their horse is caught doped. Make them curious. Make them care. Make them suspicious. Most have no idea what’s going on. Bad actors rely on this ignorance, so we need to make it impossible to be ignorant.

Then embark on a giant Clean Sport campaign. Make voluntary drug tests (sans repercussions) available to suspicious owners. Make voluntary drug tests available to all and get a green sticker for your show number for a clean test. I realize that getting samples off to labs and such makes this a bit trickier than just sticking a tester in a cup of pee, but we have got to start thinking outside the box because nothing we have tried is working.

Licensing is an absolute joke, the worst offenders would have no problem clearing whatever hurdles it imposed. It’s more effective in countries where the actual government is involved, but that will never happen here.

Build a culture around Clean Sport, remove the excuse of ignorance, and come down hard on those writing the checks.

This would probably be the best option. Mandatory clean sport training like safesport for everyone.

[kenyarider]

Scratching, an unforced error? Perhaps the solution is to ALWAYS have testers at the show.

[dags]

Sadly, (and I just checked my email to confirm), I sent this exact idea to Mary Babick in 2017. Email subject is literally “Clean Sport Campaign”, and many of these same ideas were espoused. She was actually quite receptive and even asked about possible logo & catchphrase ideas… sent over a very quickly mocked up idea… and that was the last I heard of Clean Sport.

[findeight]

@kenyarider

Scratching, an unforced error? Perhaps the solution is to ALWAYS have testers at the show

One would think….

[Ghazzu]

@kenyarider

Perhaps the solution is to ALWAYS have testers at the show.

That would be logistically impossible.

[sherian]

the vet association also needs to put the fear of god into their vets - there is zero reason for anyone other than a vet to be in possession of pheno barb - no weasel reason for a trainer to have it. Cut off the source as well as go after the trainers.

[Jealoushe]

and charge the competitors for it so they finally get mad at the bad actors and drive them out!

[findeight]

Itemized billing….it does exist.