Did medieval knights ride war ponies?

[Janet]

@B_and_B

Generally all medieval historians have some grasp of Latin. Old and Middle German, French, and English are common. (I had to have the Norse translated and the German, my Latin is very rusty now!) Very few though have a good grasp of Greek, and fewer still have Arabic or Hebrew. It is part of the silo effect. Greek is the domain of the Classics, and the Classics do not have anything to do with Christian history. Arabic and Hebrew were simply not taught at all till recently.

I think it depends on the individual and the location… My grandfather (1883 - 1950) could read, write, and speak-where-spoken 21 languages, including modern and old English, French, German, Italian, Latin, Greek, Coptic, Arabic, Hebrew, Sumerian, Sanskrit and Ancient Egyptian. (He was an Egyptologist, who attended English “Public School”, where he was taught Greek and Latin. But he never went to University, and the other languages were learned independently (he taught himself to read Egyptian Heiroglyphs at age 14).)

Even in the late 1940s my father had to pass exams in Greek and Latin to attend Cambridge University, to study physics.

[Janet]

@sophie

I also learned a lot about religious intolerance at the time against any creed that was not Catholicism, and resulting persecutions.

And vice versa. At the same time (early 1600s) that Puritans were fleeing from England to Massachusetts to avoid persecution, Catholics were feeing from England to Maryland to avoid persecution.

[B_and_B]

Your grandfather sounds amazing!
There are always outliers, but in general as Latin is more accessible than Greek; the Latin sources have greater emphasis and are studied more, which distorts our understanding of the early/high Medieval period in particular.
One finds that even if you have had pass Greek and Latin tests for university, most people tend to not use them enough to readily translate material. And that limits primary source research. I know my translation abilities fell off almost immediately once I stopped using the languages in question (Latin, Old French, and Old Scots)
I will freely admit by the way a bias. I love Classics (my minor in undergrad), I remain appalled by the ferocity with which the Oxbridge trained scholars in particular guarded their field from any perceived encroachment by people studying the history of theology. I mean…why not compare Apuleius’ Metamorphoses (The Golden Ass) with the Early Church Fathers wilder works? They certainly did back then!

[sophie]

Yes. Every country had a different situation.
In France’s case, Catholicism was the dominant religion in the Middle Ages. “Heretics” Ccathares/Albigeois, Jews, Vaudois, Protestants etc. ) were routinely persecuted and massacred, when they didn’t/couldn’t flee to another region / country. The Church created a tool, the inquisition, to get rid of those heretics, and even declared a crusade in the 13th century to eradicate the Albigeois from the south of France.

[Janet]

@B_and_B

Your grandfather sounds amazing!

In many ways!
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battiscombe_Gunn
Oxford University awarded him an honorary MA so they could appoint him as a professor.

[xeroxchick]

One thing I keep in mind is that most people were a lot smaller back then too. I know Charlemagn was 6’, but the armor and even revolutionary war uniforms I’ve seen were just really small. So a smaller horse wouldn’t have seemed as small to them.

[sophie]

Yes! It always struck me how short the beds are in the castles I visited. They’re wide, and high, but short! Unless people slept in a half sitting position…?

[Willesdon]

Human height is very mutable, being a mix of genetic potential, environment, nutrition and health. The average height in the USA in 2021 was 5’4" (162.5 cm) for women and 5’9" (175.26 cm) for men. That puts the USA at 40th tallest nation despite having the largest economy because massive social inequality pulls down the national average The Dutch are the tallest in the world with avg women at 170.36 cm and avg man at 183.78 cm. Hotels in The Netherlands are obliged to provide 6’2" beds as standard.

So an average medieval person was not necessarily smaller than an average modern person. On the other hand, a small doorway will help keep the heat in!

[J-Lu]

I was raised Roman Catholic.

People like me really rely on people like you to describe and unbiased approach to history.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I wouldn’t have learned what you wrote elsewhere. I learned (right or apparently wrong) that there were “holy crusades” in the 1400s. Christianity spread over Europe, the “civilized land”, adopting Pagan holidays to gain favor with the locals. Who needed to convert. NEEDED to convert. I “learned” that this was the Medieval times. This was my elementary and Jr. high school beliefs. Everything I’ve seen since suggested that the 1400s were terrible times. I SOOOOOOOOOO appreciate a scholar’s view on what the actual timeline was about.

I cannot thank you enough for providing you educated view on history here. It seems that so much of what I learned happened didn’t actually happen that way. Total mindset change. Ack!!

Thank you!
J-Lu

[BrendaJane]

@Willesdon

On the other hand, a small doorway will help keep the heat in!

it is also more difficult to bring weapons inside for nefarious purposes.

[sophie]

@BrendaJane

it is also more difficult to bring weapons inside for nefarious purposes.

Like the narrow staircases that go clockwise, which would hinder right-handed assailants

[Janet]

But the term “knight” to refer to a mounted warrior originates in the 12th century (according to Wikipedia and the OED). So, by the time they were “knights” they had stirrups.

[eightpondfarm]

What an illustrious family history. Would you say your childhood was unusual? (in a good way i mean!). Maybe the word would be ‘enhanced’ childhood

[Janet]

@eightpondfarm

What an illustrious family history. Would you say your childhood was unusual? (in a good way i mean!). Maybe the word would be ‘enhanced’ childhood

I don’t know if it was “enhanced” as much as generating high expectations.
In addition to my grandfather, my father, my half uncle, and my great aunt all had international reputations.

[IronwoodFarm]

Don’t be silly! We know everyone rode Friesens all the time in the Middle Ages!

[rockymouse]

My gosh, what fascinating and brilliant people in your family! I admire the ferocity to follow their own interests as well. Thanks for opening the door for me to learn about them a tiny bit.

(and thanks to this thread, and COTH, for always broadening my perspective and knowledge in general.)

[stanza]

I thought the very same after seeing ancient tack for the horses. When they display the tack and armor on a horse model, I would say the horse looks at lease 15.2 hands.

[xeroxchick]

There are military records of European armies and we know the average height of most men. Nutrition has a ton to do with height, there are three places in the ages of children that can really influence height if they are nutritionally deficient, and that was the norm for the average conscript. Remember how short the French and Irish were depicted? French in 1960s tv, Irish in 1930s? From places that had food shortages that influencedmost adult development in those countries at the time.
So actually, people were really smaller. We have a lot of evidence for that. When Europeans came to the Americas they were struck by how tall and blemish free the natives were. We have written records.

[Willesdon]

Nutrition is one significant variable but not the only one influencing height. As the origin of this thread was knights riding ponies, a key point is that in the pre-modern world, warfare was the concern of the upper classes - the people who had the good food, warm housing, better all round living conditions. The lowly peasants laboured in the fields and tended the flocks that belonged to the upper classes and the church. It was Davey the Ditcher who died of hunger in Piers Plowman not the knights or merchants. It is only in modern times, when large-scale armies and conscription come into play, that stature came to be of concern to governments. Modern includes the 1960’s French.

[B_and_B]

Nutrition is a fascinating part of history! It is not linear and has so much to do with urbanization and carrying capacity. If we look back at the Roman Empire, they are forever going on about how tall the Gauls (Celts) are. At that point in time, most of the citizens of Rome were surviving on a diet dominated by bread, probably not well balanced with proteins.
The medieval west starts to run into trouble with the carrying capacity for the land in the 1200’s. For good or ill, the Black Death solves that problem until the population goes back up in the 1600’s. So if!! you didn’t die of the Black Death, you were eating better in 1450 than in 1350. And people do seem to start getting taller.
Than everything nosedives from the 1700’s onwards. Western Europe really does start to run out of resources. The introduction of the potato helps a bit (but creates its own problem later on). This is when Malthus comes up with his theories on carrying capacity and human population. He is in fact correct…except, what he doesn’t take into account is the Industrial Revolution and the leap to chemical improvements in agriculture. Chemical fertilizer and industrial farming get a bad reputation, but one simply cannot argue the numbers.
However, it takes till the 20th century to really start to work it all out. And a particularly bad period is in the late 1800’s early 1900s cities of Europe. Which leads to some rather rude limericks about American and Commonwealth Men in WWI. ‘Oversexed, Overfed and Over here’ is the best known.
An interesting snippet on the rise and fall of the British Male! https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-04-18-highs-and-lows-englishman’s-average-height-over-2000-years-0