Diversity in the Holstein collection this year

difficult comparisons

I was just looking at the Thoroughbreds here http://www.gatewoodfarms.com/info/famous/qs.html
as a prequel to challenging Vineys view of the quality of TB she posted. Modern day farms have changed how they stand and photograph stallions. In the photos provided by Gatewood the TB are stood up to enhance a rising top line. Near side foot back and the forehand slightly up hill. Modern photos are posed to enhance the height of the hindquarter. It isnt just conformation it is also the style of the photography. Nearly plumb level near side feet(near to photographer) on seemingly level ground. It is a much less artistic photo but a more honest one than the old style TB photos. Pato

“If you had a dose of Corde, what type of mare would you use it on? Would it still work as well on a L-line today?”

This is where you get into the nitty gritty. Corde brought lovely form and quickness - almost catlike. But he was a FAR different “type” than many of the mares being put to him. So while the mantra today is to breed type to type, at that historical point they weren’t doing that with Corde. They were hoping to keep their mares power and scope, but get better form, better back-cracking, better quickness etc. It was a risk. He wasn’t a big power-jumper himself. OTOH, he was light footed and a lot of the powerful mares were ground bangers (which can break a horse down more quickly) You could have had the worst of each coming through. Instead, they got a wonderful combination.

Part of what helped make the c x l cross is that Ladykiller did best with mares that already had some blood. If a Holstein mare was going to have blood, Corde was super sucessful, so it made a lot of sense to then put those mares to the L line, that did best with some blood and the fact that the C line could tighten up the knees a bit too didn’t hurt. IMO, that might be why the L line did so well being repeatedly inbred, it was a line in search of the blood to bounce off of.

So now you can go back to your question - the problem is that you are now going to have mares less in need of type, rideability, and form that Corde brought and who have power that the owners won’t want to lose. So it’s harder to “improve” and more of a risk and there are now several stallions from similar type with more power and who have some track record on crossing with the newer type mares. I think to best use your dose, you’d likely be using it on a mare that isn’t as “nice” by modern standards as opposed to the top mare. OTOH, I still think that that modern mare might be a great candidate for the Corde if she has much L line, because I think that is a line that does seek blood for it best crosses. If she has lots of scope, but isn’t tidy and needs blood but not heat - yeah, maybe you could use it there, too.

Anyway, that’s a fwiw - the Holsteiner gurus can take you furher on that. A part of the issue, as well, is what horse are the international competitions going to favor? Because that will have an impact as well. If you have a lot of blood and guts scope tests, it’s a different situation than where you need turn and go and catlike coordination. A blood and guts scope test, though, that has some galloping and staying power aspects is different from a straight scope test and what you need to have not just the "right"jump, but also a horse that stays sound long enough to make it to the top and stay there and that can be a bit different from what it takes to have the biggest jump in a chute. Part of being sucessful is knowing what the trends are and where they are going to produce the horse for the sport as it is developing and not just where it is today. So you have to factor that into your dosage use as well - what kind of courses is this horse going to be jumping as a 9 yo, ten years from now? What mare you use that dose on can be affected by that analysis too.

Several years ago, I saw the stallion Dolany competing in the Young Horse Championships. He’s by Donnerhall out of a Corde mare. Very lovely horse. I wonder why he’s not more popular although he has a son Discovery, who is out of a holsteiner (bred) mare and is approved Dutch, I think.

Just found a video!
http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=32&idart=173&pageno=3

"If you had a dose of Corde, what type “If you had a dose of Corde, what type of mare would you use it on? Would it still work as well on a L-line today?”

I wouldn’t. The breeding has passed him by now, as much as he was a HUGE influence in the Holsteiner breed. I love Corde, and have more of him in some of my mares than most do (!), but the subsequent generations of what the blending of his blood mas made has given us better options for today.

I’d sell that dose and reap whatever novelty value can still be reaped from it. Unfortunately today, to me, this would be breeding backwards.

There’s nothing wrong with a 1950s classic car, but don’t expect it to have everything built into it that a 2011 car has. Successful breeding for today’s sport requires much more than nostalgia. But I’m very grateful that Corde did what he did when he did it, and that he did it so well. It was a lot of what has tee’d us up for such success with the Holsteiner breed today.

nick
www.hiddenpearlfarm.com

I agree that all the breeds have evolved and the foundation horses might not be as appropriate now as they were “then”. However, I was wondering if Reese would expound on why he doesn’t think the newly approved Thoroughbred stallion won’t work or isn’t the one. Is there a certain prototype you have in mind that you think would work better and have you seen one that you thought was appropriate (or have you looked)? TIA
PennyG

[QUOTE=TKR;5875327]
I agree that all the breeds have evolved and the foundation horses might not be as appropriate now as they were “then”. However, I was wondering if Reese would expound on why he doesn’t think the newly approved Thoroughbred stallion won’t work or isn’t the one. Is there a certain prototype you have in mind that you think would work better and have you seen one that you thought was appropriate (or have you looked)? TIA
PennyG[/QUOTE]

Penny , I think he is a nice looking horse but I think he is way too light in his foundation and he doesn’t jump good enough. This is why he is mostly shown under the dressage rider. I have seen some very good foals from Ibisco xx but they were ALL from top mothers and took on moms phenotype.

His first 2 sons are showing up this year so I will reserve more of my production opinion of him after Nuemunster.

I , like most breeders in Holstein prefer to line breed to the TB blood rather than use it outright.

I have a top Singulord Joter / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf / Ronald colt in Holstein. Mom has a 9 on type and her colt is every bit of a 9 or better…why do I need to use a TB stallion here ? I don’t , I will line breed to them instead just like has been done here with Cottage Son and Ladykiller. There are of course mares that still need a direct TB stallion.

To answer the other part of your question…I haven’t been looking for a good TB stallion because I simply have no use for him directly.

Thanks for your answer regarding the TB stallion. When you say he doesn’t “jump good enough” – is it his form, his bascule, his knees, his scope – what? What kind of courses has he jumped? I understand you haven’t needed a TB stallion yourself, I just thought you might have an individual you had seen that stood out as a good prototype and wanted to see the type. So do you think this stallion was just chosen on his conformation and type to refine the German mare base and his jumping ability was not as important? I still see more Holsteiners that are what I would called “old fashioned” than in other wb registries, so I guess they want to dress them up a little. TIA
PennyG

[QUOTE=TKR;5875670]
Thanks for your answer regarding the TB stallion. When you say he doesn’t “jump good enough” – is it his form, his bascule, his knees, his scope – what? What kind of courses has he jumped? I understand you haven’t needed a TB stallion yourself, I just thought you might have an individual you had seen that stood out as a good prototype and wanted to see the type. So do you think this stallion was just chosen on his conformation and type to refine the German mare base and his jumping ability was not as important? I still see more Holsteiners that are what I would called “old fashioned” than in other wb registries, so I guess they want to dress them up a little. TIA
PennyG[/QUOTE]

Down on power and scope. I think he was specifically chosen by Dr. Nissen to generation gap the mares. He is a beautiful type and has a very good pedigree for the Holsteiner mares. It’s not that I don’t like him…there is just alot of convincing to do before I would ever take one of my Holsteiner mares in Holstein to him.

Where are you seeing old fashioned Holsteiner mares ? Are they 20 year old mares ? You should have seen our inspection last week. Beautiful modern mares ! Not one was even close to needing a TB stallion. Neither were most in Holstein this year.

This is an important point…there is not really a need for the TB refinement stallion…only a need to gap the two C lines.

My personal ideal prototype was Heraldik xx.

Because of the dressage breeding and the biggest focus in Holsteiner breeding is the jump.

[QUOTE=frisky;5874941]
Several years ago, I saw the stallion Dolany competing in the Young Horse Championships. He’s by Donnerhall out of a Corde mare. Very lovely horse. I wonder why he’s not more popular although he has a son Discovery, who is out of a holsteiner (bred) mare and is approved Dutch, I think.

Just found a video!
http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=32&idart=173&pageno=3[/QUOTE]

“I , like most breeders in Holstein prefer to line breed to the TB blood rather than use it outright.”

This is really going to be the question over the next couple of decades. If I had a lot of skin in the game (money in the stock) I’d likely do the same, but from an observational standpoint I think it’s an interesting question as to how this will go and what the long v. short term aspects will be.

What happened when tbs were brought in originally is that you saw from very quick, very positive results. Some of those results, like with Cottage Son and Corde, created some aspects and effects that lasted through a few generations - especially as line breeding was taking place. Some, like the Ladykiller lines (imo) required more repeated infusions of tb to keep some of the positive effects.

But most of the really nice examples out there, now, in their 4th/5th generations, show xx or ox infusions on almost ever cross/pedigree tier. In essence, they are very much examples of a situation where F1s were bred to each other on a very widespread pattern in the 3rd/4th generation. Offspring have then been line bred over the next 3 or so generations and the concentrations have worked pretty well.

So now that there have been 2-3 generations of good type and performance maintained without infusion of a lot of new tb blood and based on line breeding of the older xx (and ox) blood the question is what will hold in the genetics? It’s one thing for infusions of athleticism to hold over 4 or so generations of linebreeding. The question is then going to become whether or not that linebreeding effort has so successfully concentrated the traits for which the infusions were sought that the pool is self sustaining now, or if, as the generational tier from which the original base became so broadly an F1 base, with many F2 bred to each other, drifts back to the 6th, 7th, etc. tier rather than the 3rd/4thish tier, whether even with line breeding of the originally successful xx oand ox infusions the traits of the original base will begin to resurface.

In different breeding pools and aspects, I’ve seen both things happen so I think it will be interesting. Once upon the time, the “insight” was that if you didn’t keep reinfusing blood, they went back to bigger/heavier fairly quickly but that was observational from some registries that did not and do not have the linebreeding on xx that Holstein has - that line breeding has created a concentration of certain genetics that may end up being self sustaining. It has been self-sustaining in the last few generations.

And even if it is not as self sustaining, another issue will become to what extent overall catty athleticism is going to be needed, over raw scope, in the courses of the future. And to what extent the tb breeding preserves the overall athleticism. Observationally - I’d place a long term bet on the need for more direct tb reinfusions being needed by the time the originally sucessful blood infusions get back beyond the 7th or so generation, even with the strong consolidations that have been derived from linebreeding. OTOH, if it was my skin in the game, I’d have a hell of a time doing anything much different with my nice mares in this generation than what has been done in the preceding couple of generations so successfully, i.e., look for the best linebreeding options consistent with my mare’s needs that are available.

I think the winning strategy for the short term is repeititon of what has been successful for the last 2 or 3 generations, but the winning strategy for the long term hasn’t been written yet. What I do see as a good thing is that eventers have been coming back around to the concept that a good xx or F1 suits most of them, and their sport, best - even with the changes to accomodate the wbs. I think this is a good thing bc over a couple of generations, it is likely to result in some preservation of some focus on sirelines that are 1/2 or more xx and that have exceptional athleticism. If the linebreeding consolidation efforts (not just in Holstein, but maybe most prominently there) are successful in being self sustaining, it won’t be an issue. But if not, with non-sprint tbs getting a bit sparser, it is nice to think that there may be an area of sport that preserves some of that athleticism if it is needed by the time you are looking at the Corde’s and Cottage Sons being 8th tier and further back, instead of front pagers.

Personally, I believe there are a lot of wonderful tbs here in the US that never hit the radar and that could be an incredible boon to our domestic breeding programs. That’s not quite the same as saying, though, that I think the best short term bet for Jumper breeder is to use direct tb infusions, but I do worry a bit about what happens long term if they don’t. fwiw.

I believe types revert back when they are consistently bred back to original types but if the new type is farily homologous in the population, there should be no reason for it to revert. In other world if the average Wb has 50% or so TB genetics than that should remain a constant.
But the magic of “the cross” or nick may be lost through the generations. I think it is more important to look for the successful nicks of what we have today instead of relying on line breeding older generation nicks, which will dilute out eventually. But as an individual it is easier to go with the proven and not expose your mares to the unknown.

Good posts MBP and Stoicfish.

What we have now is a top hybrid , thus the reluctance from the breeders to go to anything but another top hybrid.

Take a look at the pedigree of these two colts I own for example. One is in Holstein and one is here. Both colts are beautiful modern hybrids and beautifully lined bred to a ton of TB blood. With pedigrees like these , it’s downright hard to justify the need for a TB stallion in the front of the pedigree.

Singulord Joter / Acorado / Ramiro / Landgraf / Ronald / Colt

Campesino / Mezcalero / Lavaletto / Acord II / Sable Skinflint xx

Any chance of seeing pictures, Reese? I understand your breeding concept, I would like to see what it looks like!
PennyG

mbp, your last post was probably the best one I’ve read on this forum concerning TBs in the world of current sporthorse breeding.

[QUOTE=TKR;5877894]
Any chance of seeing pictures, Reese? I understand your breeding concept, I would like to see what it looks like!
PennyG[/QUOTE]

Send me an email and I’ll send you one. I don’t know how to post them here but you can if you know how .

rmiller1265@fairpoint.net

This is a wonderful thread, full of knowledge and insight. I can’t wait to read more…

Tim

Mbp such a wonderful post. I too wonder about this although I am not capable of putting any of what you said down in writing in a clear concise way.

Just from some of my visits recently to see some quite young Holsteiner stallions in this country, you are really left wondering would you ever need a TB again? When I looked at these unbelievable stallions I also thought they had achieved this type in a relatively short amount of time. And then I think of say the Irish register and have seen plenty of mares and the stallions and it’s all over the map. I think why the heck haven’t the Irish got a uniform collection of something. Of course trying to keep a draught breed going while trying to breed top class sporthorses has left a herd all over the place. In Ireland you don’t talk about cornerstone TB’s that changed breeding for the better. Nope, just Clover Hill and King Of Diamonds which granted had TB blood but not enough that people care to even mention them. Why in a country full of the best TB’s in the world for hundreds of years hasn’t more been achieved. The horse that did change Irish breeding was a Holsteiner, Cavalier Royal.

And I think if your heavily involved in TB’s inbreeding is the same yet you would be less concerned with a uniform type and indeed problems from the linebreeding. The only thing you’re trying to gain is a faster stronger racehorse. Even if you’re bad winded and and have a leg put on backwards, you still get a chance to prove your worth. I think athleticism is athleticism wether your running, jumping, piaffeing, or a combo of all 3.

Personally from a TB breeding standpoint, if I had to do it all over and a few hundred thousand to spare, I would look at linebreeding differently and concentrate more on the dam lines of superior stallions than the stallions themselves. My last TB breeding was the only one I thought about in detail. She’s now in training but won’t run until a 3 YO next year. I had a broodmare with a superior dam line by what turned out to be a not so great sire. But that not so great sire was by a good sire that already had proven himself in my damline, and from the same female family as one of the geatest stallions, Sadlers Wells. So I chose a SW’s stallion and then doubled up on another super producing female family that produced full brothers Kris and Diesis. It was a breeding that if the filly turns out super will be talked about. Yet when people kept throwing the fact up at me that the broodmare sire was so so not one person that make a super easy living from the game could tell me what dam line Docksider was from. They had no idea it was SW. Personally I don’t understand how that can be, but then again I’m not making millions from the business so it could all be useless information!

The last 2 years I have really tried to learn as much as I can on breeding from all types related to sporthorses and Thoroughbreds. And I haven’t bred for 2 years. I know what I’m doing is a lone wolf type of personal hobby breeding. But it doesn’t mean I just want to churn out useless horses. I want to think in terms of generations. And only now as they grow up and see what ability they have or don’t have, can I continue to develop and see where I need to go. It’s fun but at the same time I think how do I process all this information for good use. How in my tiny little program can I accomplish something worth reproducing for future generations.

I do think eventually the need for another Heraldik will be inevitable but finding him and recognizing him at the time he’s needed is a different ball game altogether. But for me when I look at modern Holsteiners, well they are incredible and you see just what breeding is trying to achieve. And those of you getting pics from Bayhawk, as for one of his filly as well. OMG, she is stunning! And Bayhawk, get photobucket! If a numpty like me can figure it out so can you!

Sorry for rambling as per usual. I’m cooking the horses breakfast and we all know I’m more emotive than anything fact based!

The discussion tends to sound a little black or white. Either use TB or not. There is a good way in the grey area and that is the use of stallions who have the good TB´s from the past in 3th or 4th generation a couple of times.
Or a Mighty Magic, Ekwador and these kind of stallions

From a personal view , I whitnessed in horses that the amount of XX not always correlates with the fenotype (both exterior and performance) of the horse.

[QUOTE=Equilibrium;5878241]
Mbp such a wonderful post. I too wonder about this although I am not capable of putting any of what you said down in writing in a clear concise way.

Just from some of my visits recently to see some quite young Holsteiner stallions in this country, you are really left wondering would you ever need a TB again? When I looked at these unbelievable stallions I also thought they had achieved this type in a relatively short amount of time. And then I think of say the Irish register and have seen plenty of mares and the stallions and it’s all over the map. I think why the heck haven’t the Irish got a uniform collection of something. Of course trying to keep a draught breed going while trying to breed top class sporthorses has left a herd all over the place. In Ireland you don’t talk about cornerstone TB’s that changed breeding for the better. Nope, just Clover Hill and King Of Diamonds which granted had TB blood but not enough that people care to even mention them. Why in a country full of the best TB’s in the world for hundreds of years hasn’t more been achieved. The horse that did change Irish breeding was a Holsteiner, Cavalier Royal.

And I think if your heavily involved in TB’s inbreeding is the same yet you would be less concerned with a uniform type and indeed problems from the linebreeding. The only thing you’re trying to gain is a faster stronger racehorse. Even if you’re bad winded and and have a leg put on backwards, you still get a chance to prove your worth. I think athleticism is athleticism wether your running, jumping, piaffeing, or a combo of all 3.

Personally from a TB breeding standpoint, if I had to do it all over and a few hundred thousand to spare, I would look at linebreeding differently and concentrate more on the dam lines of superior stallions than the stallions themselves. My last TB breeding was the only one I thought about in detail. She’s now in training but won’t run until a 3 YO next year. I had a broodmare with a superior dam line by what turned out to be a not so great sire. But that not so great sire was by a good sire that already had proven himself in my damline, and from the same female family as one of the geatest stallions, Sadlers Wells. So I chose a SW’s stallion and then doubled up on another super producing female family that produced full brothers Kris and Diesis. It was a breeding that if the filly turns out super will be talked about. Yet when people kept throwing the fact up at me that the broodmare sire was so so not one person that make a super easy living from the game could tell me what dam line Docksider was from. They had no idea it was SW. Personally I don’t understand how that can be, but then again I’m not making millions from the business so it could all be useless information!

The last 2 years I have really tried to learn as much as I can on breeding from all types related to sporthorses and Thoroughbreds. And I haven’t bred for 2 years. I know what I’m doing is a lone wolf type of personal hobby breeding. But it doesn’t mean I just want to churn out useless horses. I want to think in terms of generations. And only now as they grow up and see what ability they have or don’t have, can I continue to develop and see where I need to go. It’s fun but at the same time I think how do I process all this information for good use. How in my tiny little program can I accomplish something worth reproducing for future generations.

I do think eventually the need for another Heraldik will be inevitable but finding him and recognizing him at the time he’s needed is a different ball game altogether. But for me when I look at modern Holsteiners, well they are incredible and you see just what breeding is trying to achieve. And those of you getting pics from Bayhawk, as for one of his filly as well. OMG, she is stunning! And Bayhawk, get photobucket! If a numpty like me can figure it out so can you!

Sorry for rambling as per usual. I’m cooking the horses breakfast and we all know I’m more emotive than anything fact based![/QUOTE]

Good post Terri. I always look to the stallions from great mothers. I personally just consider the stallions a compilation of two motherlines.

You can post that photo of the filly if you like. I don’t have time to figure it out.

[QUOTE=why not;5878252]
The discussion tends to sound a little black or white. Either use TB or not. There is a good way in the grey area and that is the use of stallions who have the good TB´s from the past in 3th or 4th generation a couple of times.
Or a Mighty Magic, Ekwador and these kind of stallions

From a personal view , I whitnessed in horses that the amount of XX not always correlates with the fenotype (both exterior and performance) of the horse.[/QUOTE]

You are right Harrie. I’ve seen a 60% blooded horse be cold and a 32% blooded horse be super hot.

You just never know how the blood is going to express itself. This is why we must ride them.