Diversity in the Holstein collection this year

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5898882]
I agree with you with one exception.

I gave Viney dues by saying she has “extensive” Tb knowledge albeit book or otherwise. The problem is when you enter a conversation making assumptions and remarks about something you know nothing about.

Do you ever see myself entering a TB breeding or pedigree discussion ? No. Why ? Because I know nothing about it. I leave that to folks like Viney , TKR , Equilibrium etc.

It would be equilivent to someone telling me to get my butt out from behind the computer and out to the race track or the hunter barn because I don’t know what I’m speaking to. In which case , I either would get out to the track or quit commenting on things I know nothing about.[/QUOTE]

Bay all back and forth aside. I understand mares from good lines going right to the breeding shed. However there have been quiet a few successful jumping mares from a few books how do those girls escape the broodmare barn and find their way into sport… are they often mares that the breeders have passed on or is it obvious they excel and are pushed into sport?

I have a mare(6) at home that is the only filly from a mare who was and amazing show mare and is now 20 only having produced 2 foals(1 filly one colt) . Consequence of showing and being bred as an older mare. AS much as I know her filly would excel …I don’t want to show her I’ want to breed her. Her mothers sireline is hard to find and the dameline even harder to find that close up . It makes more sense to me to just breed the filly vs worry about a show career.

How do the big studs make that choice?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=hackinaround;5899217]
Bay all back and forth aside. I understand mares from good lines going right to the breeding shed. However there have been quiet a few successful jumping mares from a few books how do those girls escape the broodmare barn and find their way into sport… are they often mares that the breeders have passed on or is it obvious they excel and are pushed into sport?

I have a mare(6) at home that is the only filly from a mare who was and amazing show mare and is now 20 only having produced 2 foals(1 filly one colt) . Consequence of showing and being bred as an older mare. AS much as I know her filly would excel …I don’t want to show her I’ want to breed her. Her mothers sireline is hard to find and the dameline even harder to find that close up . It makes more sense to me to just breed the filly vs worry about a show career.

How do the big studs make that choice?[/QUOTE]

You have to have enough. Take the Holsteiner mare Carlina for example. She just won the World Cup qualifier today. She is by Carvallo and out of the half sister to Corrado by Landgraf. The breeder still has two full sisters of Corrado who are producing incredibly. One is the mother of Connor and the other is grandmother of Cayado plus he still had the mother of Carlina.

She obviously jumps fantastic so he put her into sport. This is not the only reason I’m sure. Money is another…you can’t keep every filly.

Test them at home . If they stand in a good breeding type and they jump well and you know the mother…it’s smart of you to breed with her daughters.

This situation you describe is a real problem. Mare has a show career and then you’re trying to get foals when she’s 20 years old.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5899595]
You have to have enough. Take the Holsteiner mare Carlina for example. She just won the World Cup qualifier today. She is by Carvallo and out of the half sister to Corrado by Landgraf. The breeder still has two full sisters of Corrado who are producing incredibly. One is the mother of Connor and the other is grandmother of Cayado plus he still had the mother of Carlina.

She obviously jumps fantastic so he put her into sport. This is not the only reason I’m sure. Money is another…you can’t keep every filly.

Test them at home . If they stand in a good breeding type and they jump well and you know the mother…it’s smart of you to breed with her daughters.

This situation you describe is a real problem. Mare has a show career and then you’re trying to get foals when she’s 20 years old.[/QUOTE]

I think its a realistic problem a lot of US breeders face at least the smaller breeders. Without the farm /time /resources to keep several daughters aunts etc to breed from . I think imho a lot of smaller breeders feel the need to chose between a show career and or breeding. We see people say it all the time wanting the mare to be proven. So if a breeder makes a good choice and gets a good performing well bred filly from her favorite TB mare and X stallion because the back ground on the dameline is not as strong or known in sport it almost forces breeders to forgo keeping that filly to create their own mare band and instead send her into sport to build reputation for that line. That is expensive and normally means selling that filly on. Which prevents developing depth in that bloodline unless your lucky enough to be albe to have the time/funds to do both.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5899595]
You have to have enough. Take the Holsteiner mare Carlina for example. She just won the World Cup qualifier today. She is by Carvallo and out of the half sister to Corrado by Landgraf. The breeder still has two full sisters of Corrado who are producing incredibly. One is the mother of Connor and the other is grandmother of Cayado plus he still had the mother of Carlina.

She obviously jumps fantastic so he put her into sport. This is not the only reason I’m sure. Money is another…you can’t keep every filly.

Test them at home . If they stand in a good breeding type and they jump well and you know the mother…it’s smart of you to breed with her daughters.

This situation you describe is a real problem. Mare has a show career and then you’re trying to get foals when she’s 20 years old.[/QUOTE]

I think this describes a huge US issue. I’d bet that a large portion of smaller breeders are either using older proven mares after long show career. Or young mares that were un able to show…injury or such. The later causes a dilemma the dam is not proven and I’m sure makes some feel the need to send the offspring into sport to give strength and credence to the dams lines. Not many have the time /resources to send mares to sport and retain them for future breeding once they have proven themselves.

What does choices does that leave? Buy only mares from proven productive lines… if there were those in abundance we would be Europe !

[EquusMagnificus]

[QUOTE=hackinaround;5899735]

What does choices does that leave? Buy only mares from proven productive lines… if there were those in abundance we would be Europe ![/QUOTE]

And this is where TB mares can come handy. In NA, we have plenty of those and we have the knowledge of those families.

While this knowledge might not be about top jumping marelines, we know of lines that pass on soundness, work ethic, good conformation and other important qualities.

All you need to add to this, IMO, is a keen eye for talent and athleticism.

Plus TBs have another strength going for them, they are a closed studbook so if you start noticing the best horses are of a certain bloodline, then they are easier to replicate.

That’s called thinking outside the box a bit.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=hackinaround;5899735]
I think this describes a huge US issue. I’d bet that a large portion of smaller breeders are either using older proven mares after long show career. Or young mares that were un able to show…injury or such. The later causes a dilemma the dam is not proven and I’m sure makes some feel the need to send the offspring into sport to give strength and credence to the dams lines. Not many have the time /resources to send mares to sport and retain them for future breeding once they have proven themselves.

What does choices does that leave? Buy only mares from proven productive lines… if there were those in abundance we would be Europe ![/QUOTE]

This is why I only buy females from Europe. A top sporthorse producing motherline in this country is rare. I know one or two lines coming from a TB mare that I would buy from, but that’s about it.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;5899772]
And this is where TB mares can come handy. In NA, we have plenty of those and we have the knowledge of those families.

While this knowledge might not be about top jumping marelines, we know of lines that pass on soundness, work ethic, good conformation and other important qualities.

All you need to add to this, IMO, is a keen eye for talent and athleticism.

Plus TBs have another strength going for them, they are a closed studbook so if you start noticing the best horses are of a certain bloodline, then they are easier to replicate.

That’s called thinking outside the box a bit. ;)[/QUOTE]

You have knowledge of those families but not the right knowledge. Show me a TB stamm where you can reveal top sporthorses , top broodmares and top breeding stallions all for the production for the Olympic disciplines.

There may be ONE of these in North America. This is what I mean by having the wrong knowledge. You don’t have an entire TB family comprised of sporthorse production.

[Equilibrium]

The good ones of those are in Europe too! Although America could have done something similar if they cared about papers and bloodlines such as they do in Europe. Not saying we don’t know but I know from me I’m starting from zero in a sporthorse sense. Although my female family has produced a KWPN approved stallion who is the damsire of Tinka’s Serenade but that’s hardly a damline.

I did notice in the PSI auction the there is the same TB mare as last year with a son this time. Those are the TB families we want although that one is always bred dressage. Heraldik is another one. As in his female family. Proven over and over again.

Terri

[EquusMagnificus]

@Bayhawk;5899806

You have knowledge of those families but not the right knowledge. Show me a TB stamm where you can reveal top sporthorses , top broodmares and top breeding stallions all for the production for the Olympic disciplines.

We’re saying the same thing. There isn’t any knowledge of that in particular, but if we are to start somewhere in NA, we could start from other very important criteria, like soundness, athleticism and work ethic. We still have steeplechasing in NA. There are some good TBs. Racing, last I knew, was a pretty hard sport.

The old racing guys are to be treasured in the hunt for a good TB sporthorse. They know a good horse when they see one and yes, one that will also be suited for sport disciplines. Namely, eventing. Those men have no tolerance for mediocrity. They also cull ruthlessly.

At least, that has been my experience.

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5899806]
There may be ONE of these in North America.[/QUOTE]

I’d love to know which one it is!

[Lynnwood]

What about the AHHA stallion Stealth S. Bay what are your feelings about him. Since he is an F1 from a TB mareline.
An excellent one from my limited perspective.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/my+jewel3

It seems that he has all the right genetic advantages. Proven sire… proven dam and she is from proven lines. It would seem to me that he would be an excellent cross with some older less modern very powerful mares to improve type and blood.

I have my personal favorites so maybe I’m biased but I do really like Stealth S, Livello and Con Calleto then again I love a blooded horse my first junior Jumper was an ex grand prix horse that stepped down due to age a TB and he could jump the house and was very similar in pheno type to the above stallions. Of course it was the late 80’s and maybe there were more of them around. Typically his name had changed and tattoo was not read able but if I had a dozen TB mares that were his clone I’d breed all of them in hopes of another just like him even 20 years later.

http://imageshack.us/f/267/mikegd.jpg/

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=hackinaround;5900236]
What about the AHHA stallion Stealth S. Bay what are your feelings about him. Since he is an F1 from a TB mareline.
An excellent one from my limited perspective.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/my+jewel3

It seems that he has all the right genetic advantages. Proven sire… proven dam and she is from proven lines. It would seem to me that he would be an excellent cross with some older less modern very powerful mares to improve type and blood.

I have my personal favorites so maybe I’m biased but I do really like Stealth S, Livello and Con Calleto then again I love a blooded horse my first junior Jumper was an ex grand prix horse that stepped down due to age a TB and he could jump the house and was very similar in pheno type to the above stallions. Of course it was the late 80’s and maybe there were more of them around. Typically his name had changed and tattoo was not read able but if I had a dozen TB mares that were his clone I’d breed all of them in hopes of another just like him even 20 years later.

http://imageshack.us/f/267/mikegd.jpg/[/QUOTE]

Con Caletto and Livello are both top stalions. Stealth got very few mares therefore not much knowlege regarding his production.

His father Sabotage was a good producer…made em ugly but made em athletic.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5900788]
Con Caletto and Livello are both top stalions. Stealth got very few mares therefore not much knowlege regarding his production.

His father Sabotage was a good producer…made em ugly but made em athletic.[/QUOTE]

Well then it would seem at least in his case… and not as a producer but just “him” that the cross on Proven TB mare worked if his sire was known to throw less then attractive … he is far from it.