Do some horses just not want to do dressage?

[Danvers]

ok this might need to go into Off Track … just sayin’

@grandprixer

I’m also just realizing I’m the dumbest person alive :lol:. I was all caught up in how this weekend went I forgot I was having surgery next week and can’t ride for 16 weeks! All this great advice and I’ll have maybe three rides to try it. Oh well, maybe a long break will reset his (and my!) brain enough to come back with a better mental state. He’ll be turned out on ten acres with 5 others to just be a horse.

[AppaloosaDressage]

I’m sure this must have been mentioned here or in prior threads but have you tried “tricking” him into dressaging? On a few of my greenies or those that are less than thrilled with the sandbox we head out to the fields and start with just hacking around the pond or trees and focusing on forward and swinging over the back… then adding some laterals and collection/extension and so on until we’re eventually riding our test on a dressage arena sized spot in the field… but keeping the energy happy and swingy all the while…I’m guessing you/trainer have already tried that approach with no dice?

[Curly_Feather]

I’m sure there are outlier horses that don’t do well with dressage training. But in the majority of cases it is the rider, in my opinion. Often as riders there is a big divide between the types of discipline required for dressage and jumping (I do both). If you as a rider bring the same kind of freedom and joy to the more particular discipline of dressage, your horse will enjoy the ride and the process of learning a lot more.

[xQHDQ]

I haven’t read all of the responses, but I wanted to answer the question in your title.

YES!!! Some horses don’t like dressage. I had an uber-talented Appendix QH (hence my screen name). He was bred to be a jumper, but had fabulous gaits. The work was easy for him - we were just doing training level. He was resistant no matter what we tried, and just like your horse, mine was never happy to see me no matter how many treats I brought.
After 4 years of trying to make it work we decided he needed a new job and lunged him over some cross-rails. Well…the sparkle came back to his eyes. It was almost as if he was smiling. I sent him to a jumper trainer who put the basics on him and then sold him for half of what he was worth to a teenager who rode him very well. They’ve all lived happily ever after ever since.

Someone posted it’s often the rider. I don’t want to dispute this but even with the jumper trainer, if he thought he was doing dressage (trying to collect him when not pointed at a fence or looking like he had to do a “pattern” on the flat), he pinned his ears and got fussy. Once he realized he only had to do jumping (after being with the teenager a while) and the changes in stride, etc were just part of that, he was a happy camper.

[soloudinhere]

@xQHDQ

I haven’t read all of the responses, but I wanted to answer the question in your title.

YES!!! Some horses don’t like dressage. I had an uber-talented Appendix QH (hence my screen name). He was bred to be a jumper, but had fabulous gaits. The work was easy for him - we were just doing training level. He was resistant no matter what we tried, and just like your horse, mine was never happy to see me no matter how many treats I brought.
After 4 years of trying to make it work we decided he needed a new job and lunged him over some cross-rails. Well…the sparkle came back to his eyes. It was almost as if he was smiling. I sent him to a jumper trainer who put the basics on him and then sold him for half of what he was worth to a teenager who rode him very well. They’ve all lived happily ever after ever since.

Someone posted it’s often the rider. I don’t want to dispute this but even with the jumper trainer, if he thought he was doing dressage (trying to collect him when not pointed at a fence or looking like he had to do a “pattern” on the flat), he pinned his ears and got fussy. Once he realized he only had to do jumping (after being with the teenager a while) and the changes in stride, etc were just part of that, he was a happy camper.

It’s been my experience that horses that do this, don’t understand what they are being asked to do - it’s sort of like going to the personal trainer and having the person hand you a 50lb kettlebell and ask you to deadlift it. You don’t know how, or why, and that thing is HEAVY. From the horse’s perspective, they’re being asked to shorten and squat. Not arguing that some horses have things they prefer, but that horses like this often need things broken down into lots of component exercises first so they don’t “realize” they’re collecting.

[Mersidoats]

@grandprixer

No matter what, when I stop riding, he drops right into a hollow frame and stops working.

This is almost every horse until they are confirmed at a very high level. Even then, self-carriage is something that most horses maintain for only short periods of time. So don’t feel too bad about this, or wonder if it is symptomatic of his “dislike”.

@grandprixer

We do “dressage” in between fences in that I use basic lateral movements and control the outside shoulder, and of course half halts/stride length adjustments. He can get a little upset if I get in his face mid course but will take a hard half halt to rebalance without complaint. I warm up similarly for each, long rein forwards walk for a minimum of 5 minutes and another 3-4 minutes warming up lateral stuff at the walk in a simple connection. Usually just leg yeilds, TOF, and shoulder in, but some haunches in if I’m feeling sassy. Then up to trot LNL, asking for a slight stretch and moving off the leg. Again, I do simple lateral stuff, mostly leg yeilds. Then a loping trot in the same low connection for maybe a minute each direction, and I’ll pull back to the trot and pick up my ideal connection. School that for a minute, walk, school 2-3 canter transitions and basic lenghten, and go jump. The only thing I really do different for dressage schools is I spend more time stretching and more lateral stuff. His stretch work really sucks, a symptom of the connection issues, hence how much I do in the warmup. I’ll also stretch him after working on hard lenghtens/shortens.

Maybe you are asking for too much lateral when you do pure dressage schooling. Lateral work is HARD. You may want to school the lateral work in short-short segments: two/three strides lateral, then straight, then two/three strides, then straight. It’s like doing squats, you have to build up to longer sets. Keep everything shallow. Remember, you have time. So much time. Nothing needs to happen RIGHT AWAY. Right away comes later - much later.

@grandprixer

The right leg issue is very chronic and every ride. It’s not that he doesn’t move away, he goes into it - for example, lets say we’re leg yeilding off the right leg down the centerline from L-H, like in First 2. Instead of moving towards H with a slight right bend, he goes towards M while holding the right bend. Like a half pass but most definitely not a correct one. He doesn’t do it to the left ever. I do use the ask louder each time thing, so I put my leg on and hold it, adding more pressure until he moves and then taking it off. He doesn’t do it as bad coming into a walking TOF, but he throws the left shoulder out and spins and won’t let me take outside contact to fix it. Again, he doesn’t do it to the left, and I can correct him at the cost of him getting hot. I have a pretty balanced seat, still not a pro but I’m quite balanced and soft in the seat. He’s done this since the day I first asked him when he was 4. He’ll move away just fine on the ground, but if I’m riding him and ask at the same time a ground person asks he’ll just ignore us lol.

I was thinking about this today as I rode this morning. My green-ish mare tends to push against my leg if she is unbalanced and not straight - this could be on a circle, in her baby TOF and her baby leg-yields. She also doesn’t appreciate loud aids. The more I finesse her into outside contact WHILE maintaining a very slowwwwww tempo, getting her to swing her back and drape her neck, the more balanced she gets and the less she presses into me. If he’s done this since he was four with no improvement, and he throws his shoulder out, this suggests asymmetry or something nagging him in his loading hind leg or diagonal-pair front. Maybe - hard to know without seeing.

@grandprixer

If it was any other horse I’d be quick to accept the full blame on myself, but as I’ve done almost all the work on this horse I can tell he’s just very unhappy doing dressage and does not want to work with me. It’s not a “green” feeling or him not knowing how to do as I’m asking, it’s more of a “no, that sounds like to much effort”. He’s very much an independent horse, he would be much happier if I just sat and pointed and fences lol.

You may not be micro-managing him as much when you are jumping, making him really use himself. As others have said, dressage work is more intense, more like that “slow burn” workout that can really tax muscles, rather than the more endurance with quick bursts of energy that jump training is. A break can help. Have you been feeling pressure to make your rides count, since you have surgery coming up? Sometimes if we push more, our horses push back, because they don’t appreciate the extra pressure. It’s good for them to just be a horse sometimes, and it will be good for you to recover, and enjoy him as “just a horse.”

[grandprixer]

@Mersidoats

This is almost every horse until they are confirmed at a very high level. Even then, self-carriage is something that most horses maintain for only short periods of time. So don’t feel too bad about this, or wonder if it is symptomatic of his “dislike”.

Maybe you are asking for too much lateral when you do pure dressage schooling. Lateral work is HARD. You may want to school the lateral work in short-short segments: two/three strides lateral, then straight, then two/three strides, then straight. It’s like doing squats, you have to build up to longer sets. Keep everything shallow. Remember, you have time. So much time. Nothing needs to happen RIGHT AWAY. Right away comes later - much later.

I was thinking about this today as I rode this morning. My green-ish mare tends to push against my leg if she is unbalanced and not straight - this could be on a circle, in her baby TOF and her baby leg-yields. She also doesn’t appreciate loud aids. The more I finesse her into outside contact WHILE maintaining a very slowwwwww tempo, getting her to swing her back and drape her neck, the more balanced she gets and the less she presses into me. If he’s done this since he was four with no improvement, and he throws his shoulder out, this suggests asymmetry or something nagging him in his loading hind leg or diagonal-pair front. Maybe - hard to know without seeing.

You may not be micro-managing him as much when you are jumping, making him really use himself. As others have said, dressage work is more intense, more like that “slow burn” workout that can really tax muscles, rather than the more endurance with quick bursts of energy that jump training is. A break can help. Have you been feeling pressure to make your rides count, since you have surgery coming up? Sometimes if we push more, our horses push back, because they don’t appreciate the extra pressure. It’s good for them to just be a horse sometimes, and it will be good for you to recover, and enjoy him as “just a horse.”

I just did a spurt of shows, but these were my first shows with him that mattered for several years. These issues were present even when pressure was not.

[WildLittleWren]

This is probably a dumb question (because I’m sure you have already tested this, but maybe not!) and it may have been answered (I tried to skim through responses to a degree, but I’m at work so couldn’t spend a lot of time), but does he move into pressure on the ground when you apply pressure on the right? Or is it only when you are on him? Have you done groundwork exercises on the ground to get him to move away from pressure? Is he still resistant when pressure is applied from the right while not on his back?

[Mondo]

The general tone of the responses seem to want to help you with your horse’s attitude and/or suspected discomfort. All good advice, for sure. BUT - since you asked: absolutely there are horses who don’t like dressage. Just as there are horses that don’t like to jump. They all have their personalities and preferences. I had a client a number of years ago with an OTTB that had been started as a hunter. She took him to a respected local dressage trainer and he was there for a year. The trainer rode him and got him going reasonably well at 2nd level. He had changes from his jumping days, so when owner brought him to me to continue his training, I was horrified at what a hard mouth he had. He was dead-sided and very difficult to collect. We ruled out all things physical as the cause and I continued to work with him, dragging him unwillingly toward 3rd level. About that time the owner decided that she wanted to focus on jumping and took him to a trainer I recommended. Well that horse bloomed! He loved to jump. He loved not having to do all the collected work. He loved to hand gallop on a soft contact. I will never believe this was anything other than his personal preference. He simply didn’t want to work that hard.

[soloudinhere]

I think rather we want to help her deduce if the horse truly does not like it, or if there is something else about it.

I think there is a rare horse who really wants to do hard physical work. Rather there are some with more malleable personalities.

[oranges2016]

Yes, some don’t love it. Dressage is very mental thing, involves obviously a lot of back and forth between horse and rider. Some horses are more let me do it/choose it my way please. Jumping is more like that. Trying to fit a square into a circle never really works. My first horse, who I had from a foal, also a Holsteiner/Tb cross and I went through this for too many years. He sounds a lot like your guy in personality type. I loved the horse, did absolutely everything to try to get him to enjoy dressage. More turnout, supplements, every possible physical therapy. I beat myself up over it for not being good enough. I could see his potential physically. Mentally, he hated it. Finally was able to get our visiting clinician from Holland to ride him. A true dressage master, fair but consequent. If he couldn’t get through to this horse, no one could. After 45 minutes of what I’d call a battle of wills, my horse trying to find any way out from just normal work, the trainer serenely but persistently sitting through the antics, he calmly dismounted, handed my horse back to me, said “he has a powerful hind end, try him as a jumper”. So I did, ended up selling him to a fantastic AA hunter rider, she and her husband doted on him, he loved his job until he retired in his late teens, and I learned an important lesson: always listen to your horse. Assuming you have looked into all the reasons that causes resistances, life is too short to not have a horse who enjoys his job or that you feel like you are hitting a brick wall all the time. It doesn’t mean to sell him or that you can’t ride him well but that horses do tell us what they enjoy, and it sounds like your guy as given you some clues. That lesson I learned has proven to be true after 30 years down the line.

Hope your surgery goes smoothly, back in the saddle soon and all works out well for you!

Adding: young horses are another deal, there are lots of stages like this. But that wasn’t the case with mine.

[AnotherRound]

Its hard. It can take a year or more for your horse, and you, to become strong enough to work at the training level and start on first level, and do it correctly. It takes work, very very much like yoga for people, for your horse, and short strerngthening rides or longing ssessions during the week as well as longer 40 minute lesson type rides, And, if you, the rider, cannot hold your core strongly, it becomes difficult for your leg to be independent yet supportive enough for the horse to rely on, as well.

[Go_Fish]

When I transitioned from western to hunters, the first horse I bought was a bred-to-the-9s dressage flunk out. The dressage trainer was honest enough to say that no matter how talented he was, he needed another career. I lucked out. He was a fabulous hunter, jumped great, not the hack winner, but babysat my ass all over the place while I learned. My dad always said, stop trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Maybe you have a very nice jumper?

[beowulf]

If this is the same horse that has had all those injuries (iirc, suspensories), he’s likely telling you something. Low level dressage is easy and undemanding for a sound horse. It is a struggle for an unsound one.

[eightpondfarm]

i’ve not read any of the other responses, wanted to go-with my gut reaction…
I’d suggest working on your bond… See if there is some way you can love this horse all the way through his soul. Become one with him.

[grandprixer]

@beowulf

If this is the same horse that has had all those injuries (iirc, suspensories), he’s likely telling you something. Low level dressage is easy and undemanding for a sound horse. It is a struggle for an unsound one.

I thought so too. That’s why I did all the diagnostics. If bute, previcox, blocking, and pads don’t help, and xrays and flexions are pretty clean except for LF navicular (that’s totally under control, nothing changes when the whole foot is blocked), what else would you do? Even on ultrasound all previous injuries look perfect. There’s not even any notable scar tissue, and the suspensory was the mildest of the various tears.

How do you compare jumping level muscle use versus dressage? Obviously upper level dressage is harder than little jumps, but where do the jumps overtake lower level dressage? On Monday, my last ride before surgery, we put the fences up and he still went very happy over 3’6". Definitely not the biggest jumps out there but big enough I would expect to feel some feedback if he wasn’t sound, especially with the impact since most of his lameness’s have been in front. He’s never felt better - jumped me right out of the saddle!

I’m still a few months out before I can ride again (but surgery #1 went great!), before I bring him back I’m planning on getting him chiro and massage, maybe magna wave if I can find one. I’m also getting him to a saddle fitter on Tuesday to get a new custom jump saddle fit and to absolutely verify the dressage saddle fits.

What else would you investigate in the meantime? I’m debating saving up for a bone scan or MRI of the LF but I feel like that’s a little dramatic for what seems to be a sound horse.

Edit: is it possible that he’s totally sound, but expecting pain? With all the previous LF injuries, could he be guarding slightly anticipating something to hurt? If so, how could I verify that?

[B-burg_Dressage]

Yes and no.

Dressage certainly comes easier to some horses than others. But I don’t personally believe a whole lot in not being able to get our horses enjoying whatever our personal endeavors are. Some may take longer, but if you’re training fairly (and that varies for each horse) then can eventually come around.

The physical and mental barriers between first and second are very real. I’ve struggled in that spot for a couple years with my boy. But we’ve finally come through on the other side. He’s very independent and reactive. He also gets sensitive and offended easily. (I know these are human characteristics and not what he’s actually experiencing but it’s easy to explain that way).

He just takes a lot more time. And I don’t think he’ll ever have that feeling of coming out and immediately having self-carriage and good connection. My warm-up is all loose rein walk into a big trot with big changes of direction. Those changes of direction gradually get smaller and only when I feel a good connection and that he’s through do I start playing with lateral work.

I’ll also say that I think a big part of what helped us was me spending a ton of time riding in the hay field when my arena was being built. He basically either stumbled around an unbalanced mess or he’d listen to my half-halts and we’d feel nice and soft. There was no toughness on my part. Each ride was what it needed to be that day to get him to a happy place. Some days that just meant we’d do big figures at the trot and some days we’d get to play a lot.

Spending the last year convincing him that listening to my advice would make things nice for him made the biggest difference. As soon a I was able to ride in my arena second level came in a couple weeks. Truly amazing.

I also spend time not doing dressage. We go on a loose rein bareback walk at least once a week. And we gallop in that hay field regularly as well. Your jumping probably helps with the sourness that can happen because dressage is such hard work though!

I can’t ever force (even fairly) my guy to dressage. It has to be on his terms and him realizing that I’m there to help him. Might be the same with your dude. Good luck!

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

FWIW you shouldn’t be having these type of issues while still at a lower level. Dressage is really just “training” and nothing specialized until you get to PSG or so… Lots of them max out then, for sure, it’s a huge leap from PSG upwards. But up until then, really it is just plain old training. Any sound horse should be able to do it (maybe not for a10 - but execute the basic work in an obedient way).

I would suspect this horse is hurting somewhere. I would back off on the lateral work and thinking “dressage” and just really try for deep, over the back, solid connection with the easy school figures. Make everything flow and think forward into every single thing. Forward soft circles, easy flowing serpentines, etc etc…just over the back, round in front of the saddle and behind the saddle - just easy. This should make his muscles stronger and hopefully more able for the work. And if he consistently isn’t happy to reach down and go forward then you will know he likely hurts somewhere. Altho it may cost you a fortune to find out where.

Also if your dressage trainer thinks he is an “ass” - find another dressage trainer. It ain’t gonna work if your trainer can’t keep a professional dispassionate attitude about this horse. You don’t want to even think about confrontation with this kind of horse. None of them are “asses” unless they are donkeys I guess…horses want to please if they can. They aren’t all Toto - but they generally will play along if the training is fair.

[grandprixer]

@Willy Von Whompers

FWIW you shouldn’t be having these type of issues while still at a lower level. Dressage is really just “training” and nothing specialized until you get to PSG or so… Lots of them max out then, for sure, it’s a huge leap from PSG upwards. But up until then, really it is just plain old training. Any sound horse should be able to do it (maybe not for a10 - but execute the basic work in an obedient way).

I would suspect this horse is hurting somewhere. I would back off on the lateral work and thinking “dressage” and just really try for deep, over the back, solid connection with the easy school figures. Make everything flow and think forward into every single thing. Forward soft circles, easy flowing serpentines, etc etc…just over the back, round in front of the saddle and behind the saddle - just easy. This should make his muscles stronger and hopefully more able for the work. And if he consistently isn’t happy to reach down and go forward then you will know he likely hurts somewhere. Altho it may cost you a fortune to find out where.

Also if your dressage trainer thinks he is an “ass” - find another dressage trainer. It ain’t gonna work if your trainer can’t keep a professional dispassionate attitude about this horse. You don’t want to even think about confrontation with this kind of horse. None of them are “asses” unless they are donkeys I guess…horses want to please if they can. They aren’t all Toto - but they generally will play along if the training is fair.

When you say it might be expensive to find out where he hurts, what kinds of diagnostics are you thinking? I have an open mind.

He’s generally pretty happy to go around in a basic connection through basic figures - about what you’d expect for a nice hunter, with a touch more hind end engagement. That’s my usual method of bringing him back from time off so we’ve schooled a lot of it.

And I should reiterate this isn’t a constant problem - we have very good rides, good rides, and bad rides. His last times out at First 1 and 2 brought us 70% and 72% and a 33 at BN, but the bad days are bad enough to frustrate me.

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

Honestly I don’t even know what kind of diagnostics…I would ask a good horse vet where they would recommend you start. A friend of mine took her mare to our local vet college for a few days of mega diagnostics (and letting vet students practice) and a whole body scan finally revealed some small lesions (not sure about the correct term) on her spine that were quite hidden from ordinary scans. The mare retired after that but it explained her reactions to civilized training requests. Do you have a vet college anywhere near you where they could run some serious diagnostics.

I would ask when he reacts badly to something you ask him, does he exhibit stressful behaviour leading up to it? Grinding teeth, swishy tail or just a feeling as you ride him that he is getting more and more tense? That would make me think pain somewhere. or is he bopping along you think OK and it’s suddenly a “hold my beer and watch this move” kind of thing? That would make me think mentally doesn’t wanna.

Or is your trainer (or you) expecting more oomph and wow from the dressage work? Sometimes if you over push and over ride it’s more than they can handle and they resent it. I’d prefer a quiet happy obedience to a lot of teeth grinding leg flinging. Maybe the expectations are more than he can physically deliver even if he is sound? Just throwing that out there.

You could try (gulp) an animal communicator? At the rise of being really woo woo (which I sort of am I admit) Ii have had some incredible information about horses come that way from one lady.

OK…I will just step away from that suggestion right now… I know all the arguments against it. Truly I do… and I am a sensible dressage type person.