Does a Stallion's Performance Record Matter?

[fannie_mae]

[QUOTE=OBdB;8402793]
even if I follow the theories in TB breeding, and some of them I can understand, … you cannot compare TB breeding and WB breeding … IMHO…[/QUOTE]

THIS

tb breeding is totally different form wb breeding for the simple matter that it only takes a single feature to select and bred for:
speed.

in wb breeding a countless number of features are necessary to be recogniced and selected in order to make up for a succesful sporthorse. and i would even differentiate heavily between jumper and dressage.

it is by far easier to breed and develop a good jumper as skill is what matters most, no matter how they come along. yet, even a successfull jumper takes more than just skills.

breeding a good dressagehorse however requires the furthest in differentiation:
three good gaites plus the necessary functionality to make use of these gaites under saddle plus a somewhat naturally given uphill tendency (further part of functionality) plus ridability plus temperment/mind etc etc

thus, dressagehorse breeding is by far the most demanding kind of breed and as such produces the most failures. reason our market is swamped with average horses, most of them supposed to be dressage horses.

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8404754]So what makes people decide to take the risk and be the initial ones to “test” a stallion before he has proven offspring?

Is it bloodlines alone, structure, disposition evaluated in person, schooling videos?[/QUOTE]

sexy pedigree and colour.
as a matter of fact, what you describe is mainly done in dressage breeding. finest being the best example. 700+ mares bred without anything done but running free at liberty at the licensing.
reason people do this is hope for quick money sales at the foal market.

statistics prove that in dressage breeding the average age of the stallions who breed most is under 6 years.
reason our market is swamped with average horses, most of them supposed to be dressage horses.

same statistics prove that the average age of jumper stallions who breed most is above 6 years. usually they start becoming hot when they reach intl performance maturity age 7/8.
yes, in jumper breeding self perfomance matters most.

however, all of the above becomes meaningless when the first kids mature to prove their quality under saddle.
self performance is a good indicator but no guarantee. a super selfperformer can be a genetic freak (endproduct).
reason a proven damline of the stallion matters, too. even though super damlines can produce freaks or genetic non-perfomers, too.

[DownYonder]

Excellent comments as usual, FannieMae! Thanks for your insight!

[shall]

Absolutely, for all that Fannie May lists. Competing a stallion is expensive. If the progeny are out competing and doing well, then the next step is to compare your mare to those bred to determine if it is worth the gamble. I like to see a young stallion making a name for himself, think Belantis. I open my wallet for a stallion that produces on a similiar mare base to my mare.

[Dressagelvr]

A performance record on the stallion alone does NOT indicate his ability to produce performers

This is so true. While performance is important, it must be paired with the ability to reproduce that performance.

Just as an example, I would mention Don Principe. Here is a stallion with not only a strong performance record, but also a strong record for passing along these traits.

Another great example would be the now retired stallion A Fine Romance.

FannieMae also makes some excellent points.

I think the crux is that breeding is a crap shoot. Even breeding the best to the best doesn’t always produce too horses.

This is why it baffles me that people even contemplate breeding average horses. Even if you aren’t looking to compete at the top, you should still be striving for an athletic horse with an amazing temperament.

That doesn’t often happen by breeding some random mare someone only wants to breed because she isn’t sound to some cremello or paint stallion because they want some pretty color. This type of breeding often leads to a horse who will wind up unwanted in some horrible circumstance.

We need to be much more particular about what mares and stallions are truly good enough quality to breed.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8406757]
This is why it baffles me that people even contemplate breeding average horses. Even if you aren’t looking to compete at the top, you should still be striving for an athletic horse with an amazing temperament.[/QUOTE]

In general, I’m baffled almost everyday when it comes to horse people. But with regard to this particular bafflement, people breeding average horses simply don’t understand that their horse is “average.”

[winter]

@Dressagelvr;8406757

This is why it baffles me that people even contemplate breeding average horses. Even if you aren’t looking to compete at the top, you should still be striving for an athletic horse with an amazing temperament.

That doesn’t often happen by breeding some random mare someone only wants to breed because she isn’t sound to some cremello or paint stallion because they want some pretty color. This type of breeding often leads to a horse who will wind up unwanted in some horrible circumstance.

I totally disagree, there are far more people who have black beauty syndrome and want cream sparlkleigh ponies than people who want plain brown jumper/dressage bred horses who aren’t going to make it in the show world. The ones who want a trail horse or a pet usually want something with a different colour or markings or a lot of hair. The horses who have no hope? The one bred to be a world beater but that doesn’t have the talent to go in the big classes or the brains to be a 2’6" horse. Or the dressage horse stuck at first level or the hunter who never gets it’s changes. I see those go from home to home and eventually disappear off the radar because no one wants a horse with no talent that’s a pro ride or one who isn’t at least good enough to put up with an ammie and get ribbons. And the black beauty people don’t want them because they’re plain bay and often too hard to ride.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=winter;8406822]
I totally disagree, there are far more people who have black beauty syndrome and want cream sparlkleigh ponies than people who want plain brown jumper/dressage bred horses who aren’t going to make it in the show world. The ones who want a trail horse or a pet usually want something with a different colour or markings or a lot of hair. The horses who have no hope? The one bred to be a world beater but that doesn’t have the talent to go in the big classes or the brains to be a 2’6" horse. Or the dressage horse stuck at first level or the hunter who never gets it’s changes. I see those go from home to home and eventually disappear off the radar because no one wants a horse with no talent that’s a pro ride or one who isn’t at least good enough to put up with an ammie and get ribbons. And the black beauty people don’t want them because they’re plain bay and often too hard to ride.[/QUOTE]

I probably shouldn’t reply because we have a <gasp> colored stallion. But I think I have to agree with you simply because this has been our experience. The majority of our clients want a pretty horse, with talent, that is NOT difficult or quirky. We sell to ammys and professionals (Hunter/Dressage) and have found that most professionals don’t want difficult either. And the plain brown horse is never an easy sell.

And while I do believe a stallion’s performance IS important, there is so much more to it.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8407064]
And while I do believe a stallion’s performance IS important, there is so much more to it.[/QUOTE]

Agree. Also don’t forget the enormous benefit to a stallion’s reputation of having an owner willing to spend half a million $$$ or more to promote him - including having him trained/campaigned his entire career by good professionals, following judges, buying specific mares for him, showing his offspring in breed shows and under saddle, placing his offspring for free or at huge discounts with professionals that will show them, etc.

While no amount of money will turn a mediocre stallion into a superstar, there is no doubt that some “nice” stallions have been made into superstars through the sheer determination and committment of a deep pocketed owner.

[JB]

I can also say that I spent a huge amount of time tracking down dams of foals by the stallion I chose, so I could compare them to my mare. I already knew he was pretty preponent for producing “the same” look and temperament, all but cloning himself, but I needed to see just how reliable that was across a variety of mares. Until I started the search, I had no idea that his reliability wasn’t due to breeding to the exact same type of mare all the time.

Once I found a HUGE variety in the type of mare, including several nearly identical to mine in terms of conformation, and still saw the foals as his little Mini-Mes, I know he was the real deal for prepotency.

[fordtraktor]

I have never had much of a problem selling a plain brown horse that was well-trained and quiet.

[OBdB]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8407129]
Agree. Also don’t forget the enormous benefit to a stallion’s reputation of having an owner willing to spend half a million $$$ or more to promote him - including having him trained/campaigned his entire career by good professionals, following judges, buying specific mares for him, showing his offspring in breed shows and under saddle, placing his offspring for free or at huge discounts with professionals that will show them, etc.

While no amount of money will turn a mediocre stallion into a superstar, there is no doubt that some “nice” stallions have been made into superstars through the sheer determination and committment of a deep pocketed owner.[/QUOTE]

the ‘real’ problem is that very good stallions (very good descendants) were forgotten … and ended there life as training horses or boute-en-train (?).

they were forgotten for the young, just licensed stallions, whose colors or gaits are more ‘in demand’ … those breeders (and I use the word with tongue in cheek) are fashion victims …
and those ‘in fashion’ stallions are forgotten in turn 2 / 3 years later for the new crop …

This behaviour is especially found in German dressage horse breeding (please correct me if I’m wrong fannie mae) whereas the jumper stallions, the young jumper stallions here in France are the ‘promotional gift’ if a breeder uses a stallion with a proven breeding record … or a stallion with a high breeding tax …

[Fred]

[QUOTE=GrayMare;8402608]
My personal preference is for stallions with performance records. I will not breed to a stallion that doesn’t have one. My reasons:

1. It’s really easy to have a beautiful young horse that shows a lot of promise. But many of those young horses never really accomplish as much as hoped–soundness issues, temperament issues, and many young horses just never live up to their promise. Since you can only breed your mare to one stallion, why not pick one with proven performance?
2. Many breedings are done AI, long distance. Which means you can’t go see the stallion in person. It’s easy to put together beautiful photos and videos that hide a horse’s flaws. But if a horse competed to a fairly high level, that’s proof right there that the horse was a sound, mentally and physically useful animal. Sometimes what people consider a “stallion prospect” might just be a pretty horse that should have been gelded. Some people choose stallion prospects based on looks or sentimentality, or just plain barn-blindness.

I respect that it is a huge investment to get a stallion a performance record. I respect that showing stallions takes a lot of experience and logistical planning. But it costs a LOT of money to breed, so I feel that it’s perfectly reasonable for a mare owner to be very particular and demanding.[/QUOTE]

As both a mare owner who in time became a stallion owner, I agree with this.
Personally, I want to see a stallion with a performance record.
It is not just the athleticism the horse is showing, he is demonstrating that he has the mental and physical soundness to compete.
Of course, as others have already said, having a successful performance career is not a GUARANTEE that the horse will sire performance horses, and as they say ‘the proof is in the pudding’.
However, if the stallion has a performance career and has a performance pedigree that gives the breeder more information to go on.
Conversely, if a stallion has no performance record, I would want to know the reason, and there may be excellent reasons for that.
If the horse has no performance pedigree I would not breed to him at all.
It does take a tremendous investment to get a performance record, but I felt that it was an essential part of standing a stallion.
Another factor in showing the horse was that not everyone is a breeder, but everyone is a potential purchaser - I felt an obligation to the mare owners who bred to my stallion to show him. The other riders, the people watching in the stands were all potential purchasers for the offspring, and if they saw that beautiful stallion jump with style and athleticism, and behave in a show environment without ever putting a foot wrong, that might encourage them to buy one of my breeders’ babies.

I am happy to own one of those “plain brown horses” who produces a lot of plain brown horses, and that he has shown his prepotency producing sane, sound athletes.

One of his lookalike ‘plain brown offspring’ A Little Romance, a 4* competitor who was selected for WEG and has qualified for Rio.

http://www.rideonvideo.net/watch.php?vid=1b4ebc039

[Canterbury_Court]

I always breed to a producer not a product. Coronet Obolensky and Totilas are great examples. CO was a very good jumper who has consistently produced very good - great jumpers. Totilas, while the most charismatic horse I have ever seen, has produced very little, perhaps because of his high stud fee. His foals are quite regular. The good ones comes from great dams.

[Mistysmom]

I think it is important to point out that in order for a stallion to get the produce record that so many desire, some breeders must breed to the young unproven stallions. This, IMO, is why the stallion testing is very important. It’s purpose is to provide a “window” into the future of that particular stallion’s possible potential. Definitely no guarantee. Yes, many stallions never go on to actually do anything or even produce particularly well but the stallion testing is really the only mechanism we have to test these young unproven stallions. I find that the European breeders are more likely to take the chance and breed to the young, unproven stallions… possibly because the market to sell young horses is better. Although I too prefer to go with “proven” when looking for a stallion, I still have to thank all the breeders who had faith and took the chance to breed when they were younger and unproven therefore helping to give me the information I will use to make my decision :-).

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Fred;8410350]

One of his lookalike ‘plain brown offspring’ A Little Romance, a 4* competitor who was selected for WEG and has qualified for Rio.

http://www.rideonvideo.net/watch.php?vid=1b4ebc039[/QUOTE]

Wow…congratulations! This is a huge accomplishment, both as a SO and breeder.

[Fred]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;8410972]
Wow…congratulations! This is a huge accomplishment, both as a SO and breeder.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Go Fish.

Just to clarify, I did not breed this wonderful mare, but I did breed her sire.

[Dare1]

[QUOTE=Fred;8410350]
As both a mare owner who in time became a stallion owner, I agree with this.
Personally, I want to see a stallion with a performance record.
It is not just the athleticism the horse is showing, he is demonstrating that he has the mental and physical soundness to compete.
Of course, as others have already said, having a successful performance career is not a GUARANTEE that the horse will sire performance horses, and as they say ‘the proof is in the pudding’.
However, if the stallion has a performance career and has a performance pedigree that gives the breeder more information to go on.
Conversely, if a stallion has no performance pedigree, I would want to know the reason, and there may be excellent reasons for that.
If the horse has no performance pedigree I would not breed to him at all.
It does take a tremendous investment to get a performance record, but I felt that it was an essential part of standing a stallion.
Another factor in showing the horse was that not everyone is a breeder, but everyone is a potential purchaser - I felt an obligation to the mare owners who bred to my stallion to show him. The other riders, the people watching in the stands were all potential purchasers for the offspring, and if they saw that beautiful stallion jump with style and athleticism, and behave in a show environment without ever putting a foot wrong, that might encourage them to buy one of my breeders’ babies.

I am happy to own one of those “plain brown horses” who produces a lot of plain brown horses, and that he has shown his prepotency producing sane, sound athletes.

One of his lookalike ‘plain brown offspring’ A Little Romance, a 4* competitor who was selected for WEG and has qualified for Rio.

http://www.rideonvideo.net/watch.php?vid=1b4ebc039[/QUOTE]
Wow. Nice rider and horse.

[Lord_Helpus]

Ummmm, Totilas’ first crop was 2010. That makes his oldest foals 5 this year. I would not say that he “has produced very little” ---- Dressage horses do not reach the top levels until they are over 10.

And he already has Totally Totilas and toto Jr. who are making big splashes as 4 - 5 year olds.

I have seen videos of a number of his offspring and they certainly take after him, in looks and in way of going. I think he has a real chance to become as good a stallion as he was a competitor (and that is saying something).

[goodmorning]

Baloubet was another who was said to be a lackluster sire but a great riding horse. Time has proven he can produce as well. I wouldn’t write Toto off yet. I hear breeders say a foal isn’t nice or sire isn’t producing nice foals but they are horses I’d love to be riding in my barn when I see them a few years later.

I do wish stallion owners would do some competing to make their goals more marketable. It’s a benefit of using frozen semen.

[Fred]

[QUOTE=Dare1;8414547]
Wow. Nice rider and horse.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Dare1. The rider is Canadian Olympian Jessica Phoenix.