Does "Black Dog Syndrome" apply to rescue horses? Do minis not go to slaughter? +more

[RiderInTheRain]

I think some of the Haflinger bashing may have to do with the fact that in some areas they are kind of a “fad” breed at the moment. In my area, there are multiple Haflinger breeders who really don’t handle or do much of anything with their horses but still try to sell them for outrageous prices (that would get you a young, decently started, sound Quarter or other stock type horse who is equally likely to be a nice all around type). Eventually, they overbreed, end up with too many horses to care for and dump a bunch at auction, further reinforcing that the horses are value-less.

I grew up in an area where Haflingers were much less common and the ones I met were very well trained and handled and overall, very cool little horses. I can definitely see myself owning one of the lighter built/sportier ones some day and think its a damn shame that around here (rural IL), they’ve come to be associated with being unhandled/poorly trained.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=kinscem;7484730]
Color of the horse doesn’t make any difference in how appealing it is to meat buyers.
Horse melanoma is not contagious, it is related to certain traits in horse skin and hair genetics.[/QUOTE]

Melanoma is far more common in grey horses over a certain age.

The EU has very specific regulations re: melanoma and horsemeat and the plants have far too many horse to pick from to want to deal with trimming around melanomas/tumors, and the hassle that ensues when one is nicked.

[lawndart]

[QUOTE=red mares;7484395]
All of the Amish I know do breed horses for a job - either driving down the road or plowing a field. May not be a job you like, but it is a job.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with Lady Eboshi on this subject. I live very close to a Amish breeder of Mini Donks. He was originally asking $4-5000 for a weanling. Didn’t get too many takers (did get some out of town buyers) but kept breeding them. Has lots now!!

SOME of the local Amish will breed anything to anything. They were the biggest breeders of the Puppy Mills in the state of PA, till they finally got put out of business. For a while, they were breeding Fresian Stallions to anything, then Hafflingers, then anything spotted, now they have moved on to something that looks NSH to me.

It always amazes me how many people glorify the Amish. There are good Amish, and bad Amish, just like everyone else. But the way their women and children are treated (not to mention above stated animals) just appalls me. Any Feminist on this board should be appalled too. Yes, if you ask a Amish woman if she is happy, she will probably say yes. But what do you expect when they are uneducated past 8th grade, expected to pop out kid after kid while cooking cleaning, AND working in the fields. They don’t know any differently, and that is deliberate on part of the men and their religion.

Sorry, got off topic, it is a personal pet peeve of mine.

OP I’ve only been to a couple of auctions. I go away so upset knowing that pretty little pony who was 2 years ago someones treasured pet is now going to go to Slaughter. Since I cannot take on any more horses, nor do I have an answer to ‘what should we do if we don’t Slaughter’ I just don’t go. Good for you if you can. Maybe go a few times without buying just to see who the players are.

Be sure to show us some of your finds. :sadsmile:

[Halt_Near_X]

@HeadWrangler;7484935

Which is going to make a bigger difference to the stigma of “rescue horse”: The quantity of horses rehomed (even though some will not be a good fit and be returned), or the quality of a single horse rehomed (which may or may not go on to touch a number of other lives in a specific discipline that may never have considered a rescue horse as a viable option before)?

I don’t hold being a “rescue” against a horse, but I personally do hold the high-volume rescue approach against the groups doing it.

I don’t think it helps the horses at all, except in a temporary “we saved them today” way. I also think that, because the high-volume places don’t really have time to screen homes and can’t really take back in all the horses that don’t fit (if they did–how would they keep pushing through new horses to keep their volume up?)–you end up with horses in homes that aren’t equipped to deal with them and it just perpetuates the idea that rescue horses are all crazy, unsuitable, etc.

I can’t think of a single high-volume rescue that didn’t end up mired in controversy or proven to be an outright scam. Look up threads on AC4H or Columbia Basin Equine Rescue to see how this sort of approach is regarded.

If you really want to make people see the value in rescue horses, you have to make sure the horses have value–and that means putting in the training yourself, making sure you can get them in suitable homes, making sure you can follow up and take the horse back if there are problems, etc. This is not a high-volume proposition.

Or set yourself up as a dealer. They aren’t all bad, and it gives you a way to pull from the auction, put minimal work on the horse, and flip them–you can run the volume but don’t have to take on the burden of following up/taking horses back.

[nashfad]

It is my experience that the kill buyers are usually found down inside the auction ring or just outside it. If you watch the auctioneer and the men, you’ll see them signaling and nodding, etc to each other. disgusting. IMO.

[Foxtrot_s]

The kill buyer may or may not bid on a grey horse in the real world – but he is not supposed to be sent off for meat.
Ineffective level of enforcement lets them get away with murder.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Halt Near X;7485094]
I don’t hold being a “rescue” against a horse, but I personally do hold the high-volume rescue approach against the groups doing it.

I don’t think it helps the horses at all, except in a temporary “we saved them today” way. I also think that, because the high-volume places don’t really have time to screen homes and can’t really take back in all the horses that don’t fit (if they did–how would they keep pushing through new horses to keep their volume up?)–you end up with horses in homes that aren’t equipped to deal with them and it just perpetuates the idea that rescue horses are all crazy, unsuitable, etc.

I can’t think of a single high-volume rescue that didn’t end up mired in controversy or proven to be an outright scam. Look up threads on AC4H or Columbia Basin Equine Rescue to see how this sort of approach is regarded.

If you really want to make people see the value in rescue horses, you have to make sure the horses have value–and that means putting in the training yourself, making sure you can get them in suitable homes, making sure you can follow up and take the horse back if there are problems, etc. This is not a high-volume proposition.

Or set yourself up as a dealer. They aren’t all bad, and it gives you a way to pull from the auction, put minimal work on the horse, and flip them–you can run the volume but don’t have to take on the burden of following up/taking horses back.[/QUOTE]

THIS^ is actually the best idea yet on this topic. The business model of “cherry-picking” the best at sales like New Holland, and selling them for reasonable prices to acceptable homes seems to be fairly profitable and doable. Ask Frank at Camelot! :winkgrin:

[ReSomething]

A melanoma is a tumor, and if you google Rancho Beef you’ll see an American beef processing plant closed down recently because cattle with tumors were proven to be introduced into their supply chain and the meat allowed to pass through. One can certainly lie about drugs administered to horses but tumors are hard to miss.

OP if you look up some of the threads on AC4H and CBER you’ll see some of the politics involved around rescues that work with a particular KB and sort of become viewed as a sales arm of the KB - actually they advertise “broker horses”. They are good/bad depending on who you talk to.

Rescue is not a clear cut thing IMO. If you purchase from an auction there is the cachet of “rescuing from slaughter”, but in terms of better lives for horses there are plenty of neglected, untrained future slaughter candidate horses for sale on CL or stashed in a field and ignored and unfed until they die of starvation. Some of them you aren’t going to get the “rescue” halo, not easily, but they are all deserving of at least a chance.

It’s tough to decide where the mission should begin.

[jenm]

[QUOTE=candyappy;7484886]
I second that ! To include mules? They have a great value if trained. That goes for a mini or donkey as well. My friend belongs to a mini group who does driving activities. It isn’t the breed, it’s the lack of training that is the problem.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting this!

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7485316]
A melanoma is a tumor, and if you google Rancho Beef you’ll see an American beef processing plant closed down recently because cattle with tumors were proven to be introduced into their supply chain and the meat allowed to pass through. [/QUOTE]

Last I checked, the USDA still wasn’t saying why they shut Rancho down and that not even the owner knows what the accusation is. It’s been a huge headache for the local/organic producers in this area, because much of the custom cut beef out of the north bay is done there (one day a week).

/end digression

I always have felt that the best strategy for rescue is actually that of a dealer, someone who would scout out the horses who had bad luck or bad timing and give them a little time and training and flip them into a new home. It’s the most sustainable, because you aren’t accumulating horses, so you should be able to rescue the most possible horses this way. And so often, the problem for horses is liquidity more than lack of utility… an owner just doesn’t have time or resources to sell effectively and find a good home.

[ReSomething]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140226/articles/140229627

Poltroon, I can’t say if there were further developments or if this article is 100% correct, but this is what I read.

[Paks]

On the value of mini’s for slaughter. I know at the local sale they had here over a decade ago they referred to as Jap ponies (forgive the political incorrectness but that is what they called them) because the Japanese considered them to be a delicacy. From what everyone else is saying on this thread that appears not to be the case anymore. I wonder if that is because the shipping distances are so much further or are the Mexican slaughterhouses unaware of the market.

The best method I saw for rescue was a woman who worked that sale. She was a horse dealer didn’t call herself a rescue but would look for the good horses that were about to go to the killers and scoop them up put some training on them and sell them. It was run as a business not a charity and she dealt in more than auction horses. Once a horse was on her place you didn’t know it it got there via the sale or a private owner.

But to do that you really have to know your horse flesh, otherwise you could wind up with a barn full of cripples and soon you are the one in the papers as neglecting horses because you have outstripped your resources and have too many equines to provide care for.

[LookmaNohands]

If you are really trying to “make a difference,” you may have better luck speaking to riding clubs and 4H clubs about where unwanted or fraudulently acquired horses end up. Talk to them about how important training is and how there are already too many horses in the world and they should never plan to breed horses that they can’t afford to keep. There are some wonderful youtube videos that go into detail about the slaughter industry.

Seriously, buying a horse or two just saves those two. Educating the general and new horse public to the reality of the slaughter industry would do a lot more IMHO!

[Derby_Lyn_Farms]

[QUOTE=HeadWrangler;7484935]
PlainandTall, You are exactly describing what I’m struggling with. So do you buy as many cheap horses as possible, spend a little time with each, and send them back out into the world where they may or may not be the ideal horse for each particular adopter? Or do you pick the “cream of the crop,” spend loads of time on it to get it performing at a pretty fancy level, and then find just one home? Which is going to make a bigger difference to the stigma of “rescue horse”: The quantity of horses rehomed (even though some will not be a good fit and be returned), or the quality of a single horse rehomed (which may or may not go on to touch a number of other lives in a specific discipline that may never have considered a rescue horse as a viable option before)?

I don’t know. It is such a pandora’s box. I really appreciate the thoughts, everyone. Every insight or piece of advice helps me formulate a little better the larger goal of the operation.[/QUOTE]

Most of the time it is a lack of training that gets them there. I try to stick to the TB’s, but have also taken a few QH’s and Arabs, and even 1 Oldenburg I am sure wasn’t going to make it to the kill pen. I put enough time on them so they are trained and going over fences, and good enough for other people to ride. The training part is probably the biggest thing. I have been lucky enough that I haven’t had any soundness issues. I always have the option to return them if they are not sound, but I doubt I would do that.

[The_Crone_of_Cottonmouth_Count]

[QUOTE=lawndart;7485045]
[…] Any Feminist on this board should be appalled too. [/QUOTE]

As a professional Internet feminist, I have to say I am appalled by just about everything, not just the plight of culturally and socially isolated Amish women who are kept in positions of servility by abusive patriarchs. Violence against women, like violence against animals, is a global humanitarian crisis.

[TheMountainsAreCalling]

The AC4H thread is actually what precipitated this entire digression, actually.

HaltnearX, Derby Lyn Farms- thanks for sharing your opinions. It helps bolster the idea that we’re on the tentative right track as we plan for the future. Where I’m working, we have the resources and the training ability, so our current approach is to take just a handful and put the real training on them that would make a difference to any horse, not just enough to get them out the door. I don’t think the quantity approach is for us, because we worry it just results in single horses getting placed in negligible homes, that may or may not end up in the same circumstances they were in before we came along. Our current theory is if we invest the time into a single individual to make it a really gentle, rideable horse, then it has some value, and the next person will invest in it, too. We’re learning, though, and growing, so our mission statement gets stronger and more revised every day.

I guess that is a little off-topic itself, but the point is if there’s a nice grey horse out there next to a nice black horse, which horse am I doing more good by picking up and bringing home? Guess it’s sort of a moot point, if no one is enforcing the regulations anyway.

LookmaNohands, totally valid point. I guess part of the hope is that by creating a “superstar” rescue horse that is a true packer, or campaigning well, etc. we’re reaching a crowd of people who thinks rescue horses are like so many that apparently came from AC4H (lame, starved or crazy) and making them say, “Whoa, THAT was a rescue horse?” Hopefully making them re-think that they have to breed their own, or pay huge money for a horse that comes from a high-volume breeder. But what other audiences dream of having their own foals and might not realize the potential of the horses at their local rescue? Kids. We should really reach out to those groups. Thanks for the idea!

[Coco1030]

Truth. Bought an OTTB this weekend and was bidding against the KB who stands in the ring at every sale.

[Coco1030]

[QUOTE=nashfad;7485156]
It is my experience that the kill buyers are usually found down inside the auction ring or just outside it. If you watch the auctioneer and the men, you’ll see them signaling and nodding, etc to each other. disgusting. IMO.[/QUOTE]

This is the truth. Bought an OTTB this weekend and was bidding against the KB who stands in the ring at every sale.

[Howlin_Wolf]

[QUOTE=King’s Ransom;7483850]
Don’t all ponies have ponytude? Hence the name… [/QUOTE]
Yabbut most ponies don’t weigh 1,000+ lbs, and grow up to 15hh.

[ReSomething]

Well, I’d be interested myself in the nursemare foals since there are so darned many of them here in Kentuckiana. They get sold at auction and sometimes are bought by well meaning people who starve them through ignorance and absolutely have no plan for training of the adult horse. There is also at least one Ohio rescue that places them in pairs and provides some support in the way of foal milk replacer and non-negotiable housing requirements. They still don’t give them the lifetime security net of good training though.

There are also plenty of Craigslist horses needing new homes that are in poor condition and badly trained - ie slaughter auction candidates, not necessarily rescued from the auction but likely heading that way.

And absolutely the best thing is education. People are cheap and horses will breed so there are folks like my neighbors that bred their mares, didn’t get around to gelding the boy and no time to train, so then there are more horses, still no time, and then there are yet more slaughter auction candidates.