As much as everyone likes the horses that dont stick out in the hunter ring, I personally love different love bling love different, the only thing that I do not like is all white with pink aruond the eyes… BUT that being said, if it is a nice horse that is going to compliment my mare, I wont rule it out, just like I won’t rule out a boring bay (in my opinion) just because I may get a boring bay, in the end creating QUALITY horses is the goal.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7299011]
As for the comment that a judge gives credit because a horse has “a solid parent on one side” - that is silly, the judge doesn’t know that! They are pinning what they see in front of them. Most pintos are solid on one side - there just aren’t that many pinto mares AND pinto stallions out there. Many dilutes (pally and buckskin) are dilute (or double dilute) on one side, and plain ol’ bay or chestnut on the other side - again, there just aren’t that many dilute breeding stock out there. [/QUOTE]
I never said that. I said that the horse was a pinto on one side and a bay on the other. As in PHYSICALLY. When viewed from the left, the horse had pinto markings and when viewed from the right, the horse was a solid dk bay/brown.
You are right. Your interpretation makes no sense at all.
Colored horses are not bred for athleticism as THE primary trait. Color is the defining determination when breeding one horse to another. An incredible horse may result from such a mating, but the odds are against it.
To a large extent I agree with Lord Helpus. Which is exactly why I was very very happy to buy my DW Hanoverian. Her parents are chestnut, well bred, well performed at FEI level. The DW filly was a freak outcome. Finally a horse of unusual colour with NO compromise!!
[QUOTE=Fourbeats;7298207]
My favorite color of horse is a palomino with four white socks so you could say I love color on a horse. Theoretically, if the stallion met all my criteria (conformation, temperament, ability, pedigree, and production to name a few) and the only difference between him and another equally qualified stallion was color then I’d pick the colored one.[/QUOTE]
My Dressage gelding was a lovely golden palomino (appendix type) with very white mane and tail. He stood out on the show grounds. He was also a very good boy! Carried me through my Bronze medal although he was never going to be upper level material. At 1st, 2nd, and 3rd he often beat much fancier moving warmbloods that were on their way to the upper levels. All this background to get to the point of this thread. We were at a 3 day recognized show with mutipal rings. There was a lovely (but very disobident) palomino warmblood gelding at the show also. My gelding won or was second in all his classes. The warmblood didn’t actually finish some of his classes he was soooo bad! Now remember these are the only two palomino horses out of like 300 chestnut, bays,and grays! End of show I am packing up and have taken down our ribbons when a couple of women walk up and discuss how “Bad” this horsie was! I immediately dug the ribbons back out to prove that MY palomino horsie was not the “Bad” palomino horsie!
And that is the truth of it. When you are selecting traits, if color is the priority then color ends up being the prominent factor.
You can end up with a colored horse that is talented but that is not the norm in Wb breeding and as Donella pointed out, “color” is not usual in Wb’s so you have to add the color genes, then select for them, often at the expense of other traits.
Look at it this way, if you only wanted chestnut jumpers you would pass up a lot of great horses and jumping genetics because they were grey or bay in an effort to get the color you wanted. That is the issue for breeding Wb’s for color, your first priority is not the talent, it is by definition color.
I personally love bay horses, but I wouldn’t choose a horse based on this alone. They might catch my eye first but then everything else comes into focus. It is hard enough finding what someone is looking for to add color to the list.
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7299912]
And that is the truth of it. When you are selecting traits, if color is the priority then color ends up being the prominent factor.
You can end up with a colored horse that is talented but that is not the norm in Wb breeding and as Donella pointed out, “color” is not usual in Wb’s so you have to add the color genes, then select for them, often at the expense of other traits.
Look at it this way, if you only wanted chestnut jumpers you would pass up a lot of great horses and jumping genetics because they were grey or bay in an effort to get the color you wanted. That is the issue for breeding Wb’s for color, your first priority is not the talent, it is by definition color. [/QUOTE]
And again lumping everyone into the same pile.
There are some breeders, yes, who do breed for color as a primary definition. And when you breed primary for color you can risk losing other important qualities.
But there are others who are breeding first for conformation, movement, athleticism, and pedigree and still ending up with some sort of color as a side effect.
I purchased a buckskin warmblood mare. But I did not get her because she was buckskin. I got her because of her award-winning parentage, siblings (including an approved stallion brother) and her own offspring. Her color appeared some 9 generations back through a TB that was required to be used for refinement. It then hid behind many generations of grey mares who were all bred to stallions of normal colors of bay or chestnut, or black, who had all been screened via the SPT in Sweden. I highly doubt anyone was breeding specifically for color in this case, it just happened to be a side effect.
But feel free to discredit ALL breeders who happen to have a dilute or some color in their herd. You would, by the way, be lumping the likes of Mo Swanson, myself, and few other notable breeders in that same dump heap you’re all dishing on.
I said
You can end up with a colored horse that is talented but that is not the norm in Wb breeding and as Donella pointed out, “color” is not usual in Wb’s so you have to add the color genes, then select for them, often at the expense of other traits.
If your not making color your primary goal than none of my statement applies to your breeding program. Mo uses some breeds that traditionally have color so again, not the point.
Your getting very indignant over a statement that doesn’t apply to you. And your missing the intent of the statement.
If you breed for color first and select for those traits then the statement would apply.
http://www.rollingstonefarm.com/listman/listings/l0413.shtml
Can’t see where see where she is breeding for color. I love the idea she got a quality mare that is her childhood wish 
but the rest of the horses are not “colored” and she obviously does not use color as a trait that is a part of her breeding program. I wouldn’t be shocked if that mare has a competitive colored foal as her program has proven itself successful with using non-Wb breeding.
But if your going to throw yourself in a created group, Mo is a great member to have!
Welsh has color as a part of a successful population already.
I feel as if like yes there are people who breed just for color, but the times are changing, and I feel like sporthorse breeders have begun to use colored horses who are athletic such as appendix or tb blood that is colored or has color back in the generations and while color may not be a factor it is more prevalent (or in some cases shipping several generations and all of a sudden showing up) and colored AND talented horses are being bred, but they are still not hugely popular.
so the point I was trying to make with my last reply is that the common thoughts are those that have been expressed by others … colored horses are less superior than solid colored warmbloods and therefore, many people are backed off from buying them and or breeding to them…
I LOVE bling on horses…dark coat with lots of white, but my best/most favorite horses over the years have been a TB, chestnut/blaze, 4 stockings, a pure white TB, a dark brown/white overo TB and now my best horse is jet black without a white hair anywhere!! I asked someone recently what they thought the difference in grooming a pure white horse vs. a pure black horse was…they had no answer…my answer “Three hours”!!! There is something to be said for “blingless”!!
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7300287]
I said
If your not making color your primary goal than none of my statement applies to your breeding program. Mo uses some breeds that traditionally have color so again, not the point.
Your getting very indignant over a statement that doesn’t apply to you. And your missing the intent of the statement.
If you breed for color first and select for those traits then the statement would apply.
http://www.rollingstonefarm.com/listman/listings/l0413.shtml
Can’t see where see where she is breeding for color. I love the idea she got a quality mare that is her childhood wish but the rest of the horses are not “colored” and she obviously does not use color as a trait that is a part of her breeding program. I wouldn’t be shocked if that mare has a competitive colored foal as her program has proven itself successful with using non-Wb breeding.
But if your going to throw yourself in a created group, Mo is a great member to have!
Welsh has color as a part of a successful population already.[/QUOTE]
It looks like she bred that mare to a colored warmblood though, Treliver Decanter I think is palomino.
[QUOTE=Megaladon;7300764]
It looks like she bred that mare to a colored warmblood though, Treliver Decanter I think is palomino.[/QUOTE]
He’s showing the Small Tour with some pretty decent scores. A lot of people have said they don’t mind color with quality, and it looks like he’s got quality:
http://www.treliverstud.co.uk/treliver%20decanter.htm
True confessions time: I’d love a nice palomino with some white. And I secretly wish warmbloods came in QH colors (I love the roans!).
More true confessions: I wish people would stop breeding for just black.
Not a breeder but I am a buyer and all else being equal, I LOVE bling. Corect conformation, fancy mover with a good jump and an ammie-friendly temperment are the top rqmts on my list. But if I can find all that with 4 stockings, a blaze, and even a belly spot, I’m in! I love chrome. I like some of the unusual colors (buckskin, liver chestnut, sabino, roan) but wouldn’t seek out a pinto, palomino or anything double dilute. I do like grays (and own one) who looks fabulous when she’s clean and braided, but based on the difficulties keeping her clean, I probably wouldn’t choose to buy a DW. Chestnut is my least favorite, and I have some of those too. You can never go wrong with a pretty bay, but lots of white is the icing on the cake if it’s a nice horse. I do AA and AO hunters and I do think people look twice if the horse is unusually colored. So that horse better be NICE so that color sets them off in a good way.
Strangely, I am slightly “color adverse” in horses…I guess I am suspicious that the horse has been bred for color over quality.
However, in PONIES I am the opposite! I love welsh, in particular, in all flavors. I bought a palomino section B with four high whites and loads of white on his face. He is a cupcake with frosting, has a great brain, moves well and jumps GREAT. I’m going to show him in open dressage shows this summer and am quite curious about what the judge’s responses will be. Go figure.
[QUOTE=ElementFarm;7300964]
based on the difficulties keeping her clean, I probably wouldn’t choose to buy a DW. .[/QUOTE]
Just so nobody thinks that DW is automatically an all or mostly white horse - they aren’t always Some have pretty normal markings.
This chart shows a wide variety of white markings of tested DW horse (e). Note the homozygous W20/W20 horse - not a huge amount of white. Note also the enormous variance between the 2 W5/+ horses (f) and (i).
http://www.tawnyhorse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Untitled1.png
[QUOTE=stoicfish;7300287]
http://www.rollingstonefarm.com/listman/listings/l0413.shtml
Can’t see where see where she is breeding for color. I love the idea she got a quality mare that is her childhood wish but the rest of the horses are not “colored” and she obviously does not use color as a trait that is a part of her breeding program. I wouldn’t be shocked if that mare has a competitive colored foal as her program has proven itself successful with using non-Wb breeding. [/QUOTE]
Treliver Decanter (DiMaggio/Grand Ferdel), palomino British Warmblood. He is showing at the Inter-I level now apparently.
Mo, a woman in business and breeder I quite admire and respect, first bred to him in 2012 and got a lovely filly with really nice gaits. She rebred her mare back to Decanter this year.
Years ago at Woodside Natalie Rooney was competing her pinto (by Oberon) eventing and I was there and saw him. Something about it stuck in my mind.
7 years ago I decided I wanted to breed my TB mare and I wanted a pinto that I could compete eventing on. I did a years worth of research on the stallions offspring, contacting anyone I could find with foals by him and asking what strengths and weaknesses were brought to the table, both of the mare and stallion.
A year later I bred to him. I couldn’t ask for a better more talented horse. Yes, I wanted color, but I wanted talent and did my homework. My boy is well put together (68% TB), heart of gold and room to go the distance. He won his in hand hunter breeding classes I took him to as a yearling and 2 year old, won many of his USDF in hand classes and qualified for championships, evented last year in the 4 year old YEH and finished 4th on the west coast (training level 3’3") jumps.
He’s been riden in clinics by both Lainey Ashker and James Alliston who both liked him and his honest personality even though green. Will he ever compete at the top of the levels, no because I don’t have the money or the courage!
The color is the icing on the cake…it’s what’s under that icing that counts. Personally I won’t own a chestnut, but that’s because I just don’t like the color. I’ve always been the diehard dark bay owner - all my TB’s have been dark bay minimal white. I’ve seen plenty of “crazy color” folks that DO breed for the color factor and they either sell or they don’t…but the vast majority of horse owners are recreational riders looking for their dream horse, whether it’s that Barbie horse or one from the Wizzard of Oz…
There are many colored horses out there competing in the eventing world at levels from beginners up thru Prelim etc. They’ve made the cover of the USEA magazine, won the $10,000 Fair Hill Pro Bareback Challenge etc. Talent is talent, and there are plenty of solid colored horses out there not up to par.
I think a big factor is if you are using a breed that has color already and also has top horses? Like many have pointed out Welsh already have top athletics and different colors so you don’t have to sacrifice talent for color. But because the WB do not have color in the population to any degree, you probably are choosing the color over something else when you make that breeding choice. I doubt you could produce a top jumper with color as most all the stallion and mares of that caliber have no color now. Same with dressage horses.
However if you are going for the more amateur market, then it might be easier to find a good stallion or mare with color.
But I belive what most people are getting at is that if color was not the issue would you still have used that stallion or chosen another one? How many WB colored stallions are the “best” choice compared to all the peers out there? Same with mares. I think the answer, right now, is that because of the lack of numbers and breeders that most colored horses have better peers.
Should they be bred? That is a personal decision based on your marketing and breeding goals. But you cannot chastise people for suggesting that most color horses do have a more competitive peer available and probably at a better price.
Mo has one horse out of how many. And she stated why she wanted a colored horse. Her breeding choices that have lead to her success have not been based on the color of the horse according to her breeding stock that has lead to that success.
Color is ALWAYS an issue with some people, whether it’s a desire to not produce a chestnut or gray foal, or to produce a black foal, or to get one “of color”, ie diluted or spotted.
Some people choose stallions who are homozygous for black if their mare is not. That’s choosing “for color”. I’ve seen a few look specifically for homozgyous gray because they want gray.
The difference is, the diluted or spotted horses in this context are not as common. But I wonder - what is the ratio of “quality” vs not, in each of the regular colors vs that of the special colors? Quality doesn’t have to be UL-capable or capable of producing UL offspring, it can be a step down from that, or whatever.
It all ends up that sheer numbers mean there are far fewer “quality” colored horses to choose from.
Eh, all else being equal, I love horses of a different color. My least favorite being those plain brown wrappers. Still, “There is no such thing as a good horse of a bad color”
Says she who owns 2 buckskins and 3 palominos (one of which is pinto).
