dog aggressive Great Dane - MMOB?

[2tempe]

OP - I know you mentioned your friend is quite done in by this, but am I the only one who finds it odd that she then left the dog w/ a trainer that she apparently doesn’t know much about for SIX MONTHS? This woman runs a rescue - are you sure that your friend isn’t throwing in the towel ? How can the situation be improved by jumping ship and leaving dog behind?

You are in a tough spot - but unless you are a prof. trainer, I’d not be inclined to take the dog; the biggest, though not the only issue, is liability that you don’t need… Do pass along the meds and see if you can learn more, but not sure where to go from there.

[CVPeg]

2tempe - this question has most definitely occurred to me - so I did ask her a few times what her plans are. The answer simply is leaving her with the trainer - she’s even said tongue-in-cheek she’s leaving the dog with the psychiatrist. Is brief in e-mails, but has stated she hopes she can have her back.

Again, I don’t “get” the people I know who only go a short distance looking for a solution - and traveling for a solution is often what we’re all relegated to around here. Unless her inquiries sent her to this trainer, and her “big” reputation - and trainer’s reported history of painting butterflies & rainbows after working with the worst rescue dogs - has friend convinced she probably couldn’t do better? And has been the one suggesting she leave her with her.

TheHotSensitiveType - thanks for your story. I am guessing this is more of what her situation is. My friend being yanked everywhere. Although she’s pretty assertive, she is little, and older. Not so sure the dog is aggressive to injure other dogs, but afraid with the dog’s location now, she may pick up on that from other dogs “in treatment” at the trainer’s.

And your story was an absolute replica of what I went through with my IW when I got her at 5. Original owner had us meet her at Pet Smart (we’d already met her at the house - she was great inside). Owner was exiting the store, being dragged at the far end of the leash - she had absolutely no control over her. Had told us that’s what we would be in for, and that Toula loved riding in the car, and we HAD to leave the windows down for her. :rolleyes: We only did that leaving the parking lot to appease original owner. It was a snowy day - that didn’t last.

We then got home. ExSO sitting in the back seat with Toula, holding the leash. He opened his door, she leapt over his lap, and dragged him on his keister down the hill towards the house. Poor guy - well, it was the kind of dog he wanted… Within the hour I had found the closest breed club, got the name of an obedience trainer familiar with the breed, and we did a few weeks of “circling back”. I also knew our neighbors in the short block we lived on thought I was nuts. :lol: Guessing Toula was easier than this young Great Dane would be. Although she had the drive to try and drag me to see other dogs, I don’t think she was as driven as my friend’s dog is.

I would offer to do this for my friend, but I’m spread pretty thin.
Bad weather forecast for tomorrow, so planning on seeing if I can get over there today. Keeping in mind this trainer may have good reason. Still wonder if the dog has aggression from poor breeding. Will report back later or tomorrow.

[MustangSavvy]

http://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/watch-the-world-changing-fear-or-reactivity/
This is a excellent “game” to play.

[Kyzteke]

I would really encourage the owner to get this dog a complete physical w/blood work before trying severe training. Although dogs do often become more assertive as they get older, it sounds like this dog started out fairly docile.

I hate to say it, but it sounds like the OP’s friend has already “thrown in the towel” with this dog. Anyon ewho has a dog they need to leave for SIX MONTHS w/a trainer is not real attached to that dog.

[enjoytheride]

So you’ve never met the trainer, or even the dog before? Your only interaction is a couple of short phone calls and you might have heard someone yelling at a dog. You also heard a bark or yelp which you have decided is a bad thing.

Yet you’re convinced that based on some googling this trainer is a bad person?

So now you want to drop by to visit a dog and a trainer you have never met without your friend’s go ahead?

And you’re convinced your friend hasn’t tried hard enough to fix her dog based on your googling and the bark on the phone?

[CVPeg]

Here we go!

I have met the dog - a very sweet, exuberant dog any time I’ve met her. Been on a boat with her, down the road, in the car, etc., etc. Last saw her a couple of weeks before my friend left.

Read my first post, ETR - asked for others who have experience in Danes - possible aggression, similar experiences.

My red flag was a trainer who hasn’t even suggested doing any training with the owner. Just a boarding, and I’ll fix her situation.

Go jump in a lake, and criticize me WHEN you’ve read everything I’ve had to say. And you think this trainer’s idea to do this without the owner a good idea?

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7272116]
So you’ve never met the trainer, or even the dog before? Your only interaction is a couple of short phone calls and you might have heard someone yelling at a dog. You also heard a bark or yelp which you have decided is a bad thing.

Yet you’re convinced that based on some googling this trainer is a bad person?

So now you want to drop by to visit a dog and a trainer you have never met without your friend’s go ahead?

And you’re convinced your friend hasn’t tried hard enough to fix her dog based on your googling and the bark on the phone?[/QUOTE]

Here we go!

I have met the dog - a very sweet, exuberant dog any time I’ve met her. Been on a boat with her, down the road, in the car, etc., etc. Last saw her a couple of weeks before my friend left. I just haven’t been with my friend on walks with her this summer.

Read my first post, ETR - asked for others who have experience in Danes - possible aggression, similar experiences.

My red flag was a trainer who hasn’t even suggested doing any training with the owner. Just a boarding, and I’ll fix her situation. She has psychological problems. You musn’t even visit her.

Go jump in a lake, and criticize me WHEN you’ve read everything I’ve had to say.

And you think this trainer’s idea to do this without the owner a good idea?

[CVPeg]

Kyzteke, the owner is pretty broken up about it. Has had this dog by her side for the past 9 months or so. She is very attached, but apparently convinced this trainer is her only hope to be able to get her back. IMO, another red flag if this trainer has held herself out to be the only solution. Either that, or my friend thinks she may have to put the dog down. Which, perhaps, is why she is giving her this additional time. Even though my friend had to leave for FL. Her place up here not meant for the cold months.

But trainer is very, very involved in rescue of impossible dogs. So I wonder if that even colors her observations of any dog with issues.

[enjoytheride]

How on earth do you know the dog trainer has pychological problems? Has your friend specifically told you the trainer said she just intends on boarding the dog and doing zero work?

You’re jumping to a lot of conclusions based on some googling and I don’t understand the bad news you want to give your friend. You have one phone call and the trainer saying she didn’t think the owner should come by because it would upset the dog. It might be hogwash but it also might be her belief and not some sinister plot.

Your googling drug up one bad letter and a long history of work with dogs but you keep acting like this is a bad thing, why?

You keep saying that the trainer is involved in rescuing impossible dogs, is that a bad thing? A good thing?

[Casey09]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7272498]
How on earth do you know the dog trainer has pychological problems?[/QUOTE]

I am not CVPeg but I read what she wrote as saying that the dog trainer told the dog owner that the dog has psychological problems.

I agree with keeping an open mind about the trainer. Reviews on everything are all over the map. I am not a trainer but I answered a wrong number call today and the caller heard me yell “Leave it” at my dog (as I saw the dog starting to eye my lunch). I’d hate for someone to jump to the conclusion that I am using abusive training methods based on that.
I do think that 6 months is a long time, and euthanasia is very drastic if all the dog is doing is being leash reactive on walks. That is a pretty common behavior problem. If your friend is torn up about the 6 month separation, maybe she should get a 2nd opinion. There is probably a trainer out there who would do board and train for a short time to get the dog on the right path, and then work with the owner and the dog together. Honestly, I think that would probably be the most effective program rather than board and train for 6 months, and then sending the dog back to the owner without showing her how to maintain the dog’s training.

[vacation1]

A Great Dane who will not leave another dog alone, will drag a person toward another dog once spotted, and is owned by a smaller older woman who can’t physically control him is not a case of a dog being leash reactive. Real aggression from a giant breed is legitimate cause for considering euthanasia seriously. I think the owner is terrified of what she knows could be her only answer - having her beloved young dog killed. She realizes he has a dangerous level of aggression that she can’t physically keep him from acting on - and the head harness suggestion is horrible unless they’re making them a lot better fitting than they used to, those things will pop off pretty easy - and doesn’t see how this can possibly end well. I feel for her. At this stage, the dog should be outside of his house only with a strong, well-fitting muzzle. They’re not inhumane, and it will lessen the risk.

The descriptions of the trainer worries me. If a person is a great trainer and does rescue too, that’s one thing. But I would be leery of a trainer whose history seems heavily weighted on the side of rescue work. Rescue is not training or behavior modification. It’s rehoming. Two great tasks, they’re very different and a person who does one well does not automatically do the other well. Also, there are those who are drawn to specialize in aggressive dogs for reasons that have nothing to do with skill or understanding of dogs. Those people can be truly awful. A South African trainer who specialized in aggression and self-promotion, James Lech took Rotties inappropriately in public spaces and twice in 2 years his dogs mauled kids. The mall attack is chilling - the dog not only bites the child, it actually grabs hold and drags her rapidly out of sight. In the US, one bite case rehomed out of NYC to a trainer to be rehabbed was found buried in the trainer’s yard months after she claimed the pit bull had been stolen. Some scary people out there, and plenty of them are emotionally drawn to the cachet of being the “special” trainer who can handle a big, aggressive dog.

The mall attack
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/07/africas-dog-whisperers-dog-attacks-4-year-old-girl-at-mall/

The geniuses at The Lexus Project who from all the potential trainers in the world managed to choose one whose tiny house was crammed with large, aggressive dogs housed in uncleaned crates and underfed. Their advisor on this choice? Rescue groups, who were all shocked, shocked when Lexus trespassed on her property long enough to dig up their not-so-rescued former success story.
http://thelexusproject.org/tlpdog/bones

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7272498]
How on earth do you know the dog trainer has pychological problems? Has your friend specifically told you the trainer said she just intends on boarding the dog and doing zero work?

You’re jumping to a lot of conclusions based on some googling and I don’t understand the bad news you want to give your friend. You have one phone call and the trainer saying she didn’t think the owner should come by because it would upset the dog. It might be hogwash but it also might be her belief and not some sinister plot.

Your googling drug up one bad letter and a long history of work with dogs but you keep acting like this is a bad thing, why?

You keep saying that the trainer is involved in rescuing impossible dogs, is that a bad thing? A good thing?[/QUOTE]

No, ETR. The dog is also a she. This trainer has told my friend that her dog has psychological problems, she has had her drop her off a handful of times this summer for training which does NOT include my friend, then last time she drops her off, tells her she can’t see her before she leaves for FL, etc. - that’s where I’ve come in. I’m bringing her her meds, and have been asked very passively (my friend knows I just lost a dog, believe she thinks I may be emotional about it, but I’m not) to check on her dog when/if it’s convenient.

To sum it up, I frankly think this trainer sounds like she puts a lot of drama into a situation that might not have to be addressed that way.

And I wouldn’t pooh-pooh googling. It’s basically the norm for many researchers these days. It brought me to NYC based newspaper articles on this trainer, albeit much of it self-serving in a way many rescues hold themselves out as the ultimate answer. One of them includes a lengthy response about this trainer’s not having a rescue operation running smoothly, but frankly running amok to some extent, and failing to inform those giving up animals about possible euthanasia - why I worry she is about butterflies and rainbows. I would feel better if she had had my friend work with her in place, but this trainer seems to have immediately determined the dog needs in depth training at the rescue location.

I haven’t thrown the trainer under the bus yet, but am almost wondering if the training method suits the trainer’s lifestyle (I have dozens of rescues I’m caring for, just leave her with me…") vs what’s really best for the dog, and my friend.

And as I said from the get go, I may be totally wrong if it’s a physiological thing, which is why I’m seeking additional input on others experienced with Great Dane aggression, or a similar situation. If one has an aggressive dog, is there some true boot camp kind of training that benefits?

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=Casey09;7272584]

Honestly, I think that would probably be the most effective program rather than board and train for 6 months, and then sending the dog back to the owner without showing her how to maintain the dog’s training.[/QUOTE]

Agree with you, Casey09 - although guess my friend’s lifestyle and logistics (6 months up here, 6 in The Keys) perhaps limits her choices a bit. I’m concerned that the dog living with dozens of other “last chance” rescue types for 6 months with this gal, might not be the right choice for her - and especially away from her owner for so long.

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=vacation1;7272687]
A Great Dane who will not leave another dog alone, will drag a person toward another dog once spotted, and is owned by a smaller older woman who can’t physically control him is not a case of a dog being leash reactive. Real aggression from a giant breed is legitimate cause for considering euthanasia seriously. I think the owner is terrified of what she knows could be her only answer - having her beloved young dog killed.

The descriptions of the trainer worries me. If a person is a great trainer and does rescue too, that’s one thing. But I would be leery of a trainer whose history seems heavily weighted on the side of rescue work. Rescue is not training or behavior modification. It’s rehoming. Two great tasks, they’re very different and a person who does one well does not automatically do the other well. Also, there are those who are drawn to specialize in aggressive dogs for reasons that have nothing to do with skill or understanding of dogs. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for this Vacation1. Agree with your observations, and perhaps not quite comfortable with this operation being the best for this dog, unless the dog is the extreme…

Not sure where the muzzle/harness part came in. I haven’t brought that up - other posters may have suggested it, I believe.

The Lexus Project gave me a jolt - then realized that was the group that the wrong person/same name had try to rescue her dog who had fatally attacked a child. So, phew, no relation to this trainer yet. This is all giving me a headache. LOL

But, yes, I worry if the dog is with the “right kind” of rescue. And perhaps, also because I’ve had the experience of dealing with other down-staters - even those from local cities, coming out here in the boonies and even if well meaning, doing less than admirable, or competent things with their lifes’ commitments. Fine if this is appropriate; horrors if the dog isn’t meeting their one size fits all approach (see Mill Creek thread under Off Course…)

So yesterday, had a laundry list of stuff to get done. Took the meds with me, and on the way home drove to the trainer’s. A very nice home I remember from previous years having attended a couple of community committee meetings there. Now donated to this rescue from its NYC owners - a truly lovely location. Didn’t remember it actually had a barn fitted with stalls.

Problem was, despite 3 vehicles being parked in the driveway, and dogs within the house barking considerably, no one answered the door - then again this visit was unannounced. And it was the beginnings of a nasty snowstorm that blew up late afternoon. The barn had lights on, so I walked down there - could see stalls with bars, and additional bars added in obviously for dogs. More barking. Thought I heard a voice. Knocked, called out, no answer.

Searched for the trainer’s phone number, which I thought I had jotted on my list, but didn’t have it. And even spending the $$ for a directory search on my cell didn’t come up with anything. So I crawled home.

Will probably just keep my scheduled appt for tomorrow. Truly hope this is all nothing, so I can go back to normal.

[CVPeg]

[QUOTE=MustangSavvy;7271773]
http://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/watch-the-world-changing-fear-or-reactivity/
This is a excellent “game” to play.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, MustangSavvy for this. Just now got to backtrack and read this link. Love it! One to keep in the files.

I also had to have a pocket full of cheese for my Toula when I first got her at 5, with no obedience skills. Lots of tugging, so lots of my changing of direction, but not without the cheese to start.

[Chall]

[QUOTE=MustangSavvy;7271773]
http://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/watch-the-world-changing-fear-or-reactivity/
This is a excellent “game” to play.[/QUOTE]
ShutUP ( in my best Elaine from Seinfeld voice). Would this work for horses? And, like, no one has come with this before?

[MustangSavvy]

[QUOTE=Chall;7272863]
ShutUP ( in my best Elaine from Seinfeld voice). Would this work for horses? And, like, no one has come with this before?[/QUOTE]

?
Horses are prey animals while dogs are predators. I am not sure why everyone on his forum has the need to compare the two they are different and thus require different training techniques. I am a bit confused by your post. xD

[cowboymom]

Actually, Chall, I know someone that did train a horse with the same “technique”… someone gave her a free horse that had a lot of dangerous issues and whenever the horse would start to gear up, my friend would shake her front shirt pocket full of treats. Horse would turn to her for a treat and calm down.

Horses and dogs are different creatures but they’re both pigs for food. Distraction therapy can work on both.

[CVPeg]

Well, have decided to just be done with this. Have done more research - trainer certainly seems to have plenty of rescue experience. Dozens & dozens & dozens of pictures of faces on her FB page, including one Saturday of her and the dogs watching movies on TV just at the time I was at the door.
Nope, I don’t blame her for not answering the door for a surprise visit. But still see no descriptions of any obedience experience, one on one training for owners, behavioral recommendations, just rescue, rescue, rescue/faces, faces, faces.

E-mailed friend yesterday, shared some info, and offered that if she had any 2nd thoughts I’d be happy to meet her half-way this week with the dog before she continues her journey all the way to Fla., and I get too busy. Asked if this trainer had suggested a blood work-up, or any further exam from the vet, I’d even take the dog to the vet for her. “Friends have highly recommended her” is it.

Previously I had suggested, but friend never called, a breed group for advice - because this trainer was the answer. Friend frankly blew off “breed groups”.

Just called the trainer to let her know I’d only plan on dropping off the meds. Which was good because she wouldn’t be ready to meet with us because there was a “big emergency” last night and they aren’t prepared for me to visit the dog.

Dropping off the meds this morning, and then stepping out of the picture.

Friend and I just have different priorities. Thought perhaps not by her demeanor over leaving the dog, but it is what it is.

Just feel very bad for this dog. Looks like they take care of their dogs. But she’ll be one of dozens. And my friend can handle it from Fla.

[2tempe]

CVPeg - cheers to you for trying to figure out the situation and worrying about what is best for the dog. You do the best you can and sometimes its not to be.