Dog breeders? Puppies!

[equinedriver]

Yes, I would agree in an instance which was not related to pelvic size etc, it’s worth it to give a nice bitch a second chance, but if she required a second section, that would be it for me, regardless of how nice she or the puppies were. Sometimes it IS just a fluke thing. But if she had two log jams that required a section, I would assume there was something about her that was an issue and not reproduce it. JMHO

OTOH, I agree about ignorant owners waiting to long. I have run into a few that said, well, she had been in labor for two days so we finally took her in but the puppies were dead. Really? When I say rush to a C section, I encountered many breeders that would go in for a section because it had been 2 hours since the last puppy. We had that happen from time to time. If they didn’t appear in distress, I just waited them out. Sometimes we would have 3 or so, 15 to 30 min apart, then 2 hours, then 3 more 15 min apart. Who knows. I always just assumed they were moving down to get ready to exit. Like I said, if the bitch wasn’t in distress, I just waited on nature to work it out.

[Marshfield]

Waiting two hours is not abig deal. The last client’s csection I did, they had waited thirty six hours. For Gale, nice wide pelvis and only the first in several generations in her dam line to need a csection. But, I have seen some folks end up spaying a bitch after repeated bouts of labor that resulted in surgery due to uterine inertia. And English bulldogs are just whole other frightening subject. #

[Houndhill]

Anyone used the Whelpwise service? It is where you rent an ultrasound device and scan the bitch and transmit the unborn puppies’ fetal heartbeats over the phone lines to a repro vet service in Colorado, I believe, and they can advise you when the puppies are starting to go into distress, and whether or when to then take the bitch in for a C-Section (your vet is involved with the service too). I believe they also advise you on the possible use of calcium injections and possibly oxytocin.

I know several IW breeders who have used the service and been pleased. Several have done C-Sections on their advice, and some think that C-sections may be more often done when using this service than not.

I would think it might be especially reassuring for those less experienced with whelping…I believe it is several hundred dollars to use this service.

I agree it is a real judgement call to know when to do a C-section, and this might provide that extra data to consider.

[MKW]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate your experiences and insights. This is something I feel strongly about and agree with most of you that planned c-sections should not be the norm.

The breeder that I referred to in the original post is a good friend and also co-owner of my bitch. We were co breeders on my girl’s first litter. Because of my strong feelings on not doing a planned c-section she was able to have her litter naturally. It was not without complications however. She delivered on day 63 post ovulation according to progesterone testing and we knew she had 6 pups according to the x-ray taken shortly before she was due to deliver. Pup #2 was born already out of the sac and we were unable to revive him. After no more than 2 hours of labor to deliver pup # 6 , we took her into the local vet hospital where they determine that pup was stuck with one arm/shoulder through the birth canal and one back. We lost that pup as well. Mom went on immediately to be an excellent mom the moment she got home. Three of the 4 surviving pups are pointed , two with majors , at just over a year. Nice puppies!

Given that experiences I still feel strongly that a planned c-section is not the way to go. I feel badly that we lost 2 pups, especially as my co -breeder had as much invested ($$$) in the litter as I did. Hard to say what would happen with a c-section, but it is easy to think that we would not have lost any puppies. Plans are to breed this bitch again at one of her next two heat cycles. So, my dilemma, agree to a planned c-section or not? WWYD? My co -owner/breeder has much more experience than I do.

BTW this bitch is my heart dog!

Thanks again!

[merrygoround]

There was just a report published in human medicine. It has been shown that C-section births are not better for babies.

Occasionally they are necessary, but no so that Mom can keep her schedule, and so that Mom doesn’t have get all hot and sweaty in labor.

[Houndhill]

MKW, why don’t you consider the Whelpwise service next time? That way, if all goes well, your bitch would have a chance to deliver on her own, but if a puppy got into trouble, you would be able to tell that and do a C-Section if you needed one in time to save the puppies if they could be saved.

That said, sometimes puppies cannot be saved, they are stillborn perhaps because they died earlier, or are not viable for one reason or another.

You may or may not have been able to save pup #2, and perhaps could have saved pup # 6 had you done a C-section. But so much can happen, who can say what might have been.

Congrats on the puppies, sounds like they are doing very well. You got four nice puppies and your bitch did not have to go under the knife. If she were mine, I wouldn’t do a planned C-section unless there is just one puppy (and maybe not even then).

[Kryswyn]

Whelpwise is AMAZING if not inexpensive but there is NO DOUBT that it has saved the lives of many puppies of my friend who breeds Welsh Terriers. Sometimes it has recommended rushing the bitch in; sometimes it provides reassurance to wait and give the bitch time. If you sign up for the service you’ll get a bunch of equipment (rented not purchased) that will allow you to closely monitor the labor and the unborn whelps’ stress levels. You also get some drugs to assist your bitch if she suffers fatigue. The recordings you make get transmitted via phone line to an whelping expert (I’m not sure of her exact qualifications) who can advise you what to do when, and when to call your vet for the c-section.

I sat up with my friend one night during whelping, and I have to tell you I’d’ve been at the vet’s demanding a section, but Whelpwise said, ‘no, just give her a shot and some more time’. Spot on. 45 minutes later pup 1 came out followed quickly by 4 more. All perfect.

I’m not sure how much it costs now, but back then (she’s used them for years) the money saved in the c section covered the cost of the rental.

[Bumper]

I’m with Wendy 100%.

Three bitches over 10 yrs, 7 litters, not a lick of trouble except my newbie nerves. Rushed Boo in last time because she seemed to still be in labor after delivering 3 pups (one was breech and didn’t make it, other two were fine), but it turned out she was constipated. I’m on top of that this year. My vet was relieved to do an ultra sound and find only sh!t.

[Houndhill]

Kryswyn, that is great to know about Whelpwise, thanks.

Sure sounds like something I will consider next time, and sounds to me like a great option for the OP.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;6110234]
I had one bitch that needed a c section but she was already in heavy labor. She had uterine inertia and after she had the litter I spayed her as we do not keep or breed bitches that need c sections. She killed one of her puppies within a hour or two of coming home and I had to stay with her for 48 hours to make sure she did not kill the rest. In fairness, she may have killed it because it was not normal, or she was not fully out of anesthesia… but I still spayed her and none of her puppies were bred either. BTW, her dam also needed c sections.

I only keep bitches who free whelp and I just cannot justify those who schedule c sections as a matter of course!!! But I also do natural breedings as opposed to AIs ( when both bitch and sire are in the same location). I know some breeders ONLY AI and I cannot agree with that either. I have never missed a breeding when I did a natural breeding as my males know when the bitch is ready to be bred.

There are exceptions to every rule, as when a puppy may be too big for the birth canal, but to c section as a matter of course is just against my ethics.[/QUOTE]

I absolute agree with this poster. It is insane to breed a dog that does not free whelp for a variety of reasons. I don’t care that it is “common practice”.Perhaps in the case of this dog that you just whelped, you might have been able to save the puppy with the shoulder wedged, experience helps with that, you can assist but you do have to be careful. You may very well have lost all of them with a c-section. I just don’t get it that so many Welsh Corgis are such bad whelpers but many dogs do lose a puppy or two from larger litters. Breeding is not for sissies that is for sure.