Dog chasing birds, at my wit's end UPDATE POST 27

[S1969]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8726349]
So, in teaching I used the first theory.
Once the dogs understood I used the crop version.
ymmv[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. If you have two people you can do it with a check cord too, so one person can show the dog how to stop the buzz/shock by turning to recall. I taught my dog to recall without the collar first, then introduced it basically as described. I now use it only as a “crop”.

Some people use it to teach a behavior, like “heel” using the collar rather than teaching heel and then applying the collar. A lot of people would disagree with using negative reinforcement to teach heel, but some of the hunting dogs I know that have been taught this way learned very fast, and are very precise. Again, this is more important for competition, and some of the field competitions include strict heeling. A lot of owners feel the collar is more humane than teaching to heel with a regular leash and collar because there is no yanking/pulling. And, maybe not as easy to teach to heel in a field situation with R+ because the dogs may ignore food as a reward.

[chalice18]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8719007]
I have had good luck with the citronella training collars. Worth a try before you go to shock.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I would definitely try the citronella collar before the shock collar. That said, some dogs will only react to a shock, and it may be the only way to get your dog’s attention. Her safety is key here, and I imagine she will learn quickly.

[Foxtrot_s]

My neighbour uses the citronella collar on a perpetually barking pitbull - says it works fine with this particular dog. But some dogs do not respond to it very well.

[TheJenners]

As an aside, can someone explain how the shock collar works for heel??

My nearly 11 mos Aussie, I leash trained around six or seven months and he was good. Then we went a month or two without it because life, then he was spending a lot of time with my dogs’ “auntie” who is a good friend and not so much a disciplinarian. As in, if she is on the couch she lets the puppy jump on her head, not kidding. Anyway, now I am in a situation where I have to lead the dogs to a potty area, and he pulls like a freight train. Simple correction with the leash gets no where, he would rather keep pulling and hack when when I correct than not pull. I already ordered an e-collar, am wondering how this might actually help with that as well?

[french_fry]

[QUOTE=TheJenners;8733583]
As an aside, can someone explain how the shock collar works for heel??

My nearly 11 mos Aussie, I leash trained around six or seven months and he was good. Then we went a month or two without it because life, then he was spending a lot of time with my dogs’ “auntie” who is a good friend and not so much a disciplinarian. As in, if she is on the couch she lets the puppy jump on her head, not kidding. Anyway, now I am in a situation where I have to lead the dogs to a potty area, and he pulls like a freight train. Simple correction with the leash gets no where, he would rather keep pulling and hack when when I correct than not pull. I already ordered an e-collar, am wondering how this might actually help with that as well? :)[/QUOTE]

I’m going to derail my own thread, but have you tried the stop and stand completely still until the dog turns to pay attention to you and puts some slack in the leash technique?

It is BRUTAL the first few times - I’m convinced that people say it doesn’t work solely because they try it for 10 seconds, think they’ve been at it for 45 minutes (it really feels that long) and decide their dog is the one in a million it won’t work for.

You have to stand stock still every single time the dog pulls on the leash. You don’t need to jerk or let the dog come to an abrupt halt, it’s just a cessation of forward motion. It works better than a leash correction because the leash correction is ultimately just an annoyance; the dog still gets to continue going wherever he’s so desperate to go relatively unimpeded.

I also think it works better than the abruptly turn and walk the other way routine (which theoretically teaches the dog to pay attention to you and not just run amok) because with a lot of dogs, it’s just a minor inconvenience with the direction change and then a NEW direction to run find exciting things in.

The stopping dead until you have the dog’s attention on you and slack in the leash is dead boring to the dog and they eventually learn that if they want to get wherever they want to get, they have to do it on your timeline.

Once I have basic loose leash walking “installed” I start working on a more formal heel, using luring to entice them to walk right next to me focusing on me for 5 or so steps at a time, building up from there.

Loose leash walking can mean anything from the length of the leash to an informal heel (i.e. the dog is walking next to you but not staring at you waiting for its next command) based on how long you make your leash. Heeling, to me, is a more formal behavior that works really well in situations where you need to weave through a crowd, distract your dog from another dog, or I guess in competitions and other events.

[Cascades]

[QUOTE=TheJenners;8733583]
As an aside, can someone explain how the shock collar works for heel??

My nearly 11 mos Aussie, I leash trained around six or seven months and he was good. Then we went a month or two without it because life, then he was spending a lot of time with my dogs’ “auntie” who is a good friend and not so much a disciplinarian. As in, if she is on the couch she lets the puppy jump on her head, not kidding. Anyway, now I am in a situation where I have to lead the dogs to a potty area, and he pulls like a freight train. Simple correction with the leash gets no where, he would rather keep pulling and hack when when I correct than not pull. I already ordered an e-collar, am wondering how this might actually help with that as well? :)[/QUOTE]

E-collars certainly have their place, but it seems pretty over the top to use one to teach a puppy to walk on a leash. IMO, of course.

What worked for me:

Start to walk, tell puppy “Let’s go!” Puppy lunges to end of leash, I abruptly change directions, tell puppy to “Keep up!”. Puppy catches up, we change directions back to the original direction. Rinse, repeat. Every time he pulled, I changed directions. Eventually he learned we get where he wants to go much faster when he’s polite.

The first walk, I got a little dizzy changing directions so often. Second walk, only had to do it a few times. Since then, he’s been very polite.

I’d try something like that before jumping straight to the e-collar. Especially since you’ve admittedly not been spending much time on teaching the puppy.

ETA: I like french fry’s method, too.

[french_fry]

UPDATE:

We’ve been using a check cord at the park and I am now firmly convinced that an ecollar would be less drastic than her hitting the end of the line and coming to an abrupt stop. My timing is improving and she is starting to listen better when she’s on the line, but occasionally she takes off and I have to pick up the line and stop her.

I talked to the trainer I’ve used in the past and she acknowledged that the bird chasing behavior is so reinforcing in itself that there’s no going to be plying her with cookies to get her to switch gears. She recommended we try the citronella collar before an ecollar, but I have reservations about the citronella collar.

To my mind, the citronella collar could provide a more negative (traumatic?) stimulus since the effects take a little while to wear off, whereas the vibration/buzz of the ecollar is a quick, discrete action.

I have the opportunity to consult with a trainer my friend has used in the past. He primarily works with hunting dogs and his methods are a little old school for my tastes - absolutely nothing scary or abusive but use of the ecollar and “pack leader” principle type stuff. I worry that my goofy little mushball of a timid rescue will be overwhelmed with his training style, but he has produced MAGICAL results in other dogs I’ve known - they are so happy and carefree because they can do so many things (off leash anywhere, accompany their owners more places because they’re so well behaved, etc.) and the training definitely hasn’t taken the sparkle out of their eyes.

I’m sure the +R people are going to be all, “don’t doooo itttttt” and everyone else is going to be all, “doooo ittttt” but I thought I’d throw it out there for the board since I’ve gotten such thoughtful responses.

[Cascades]

I think this would be a situation where I would use the e-collar.

It sounds like you’ve really considered all of the options and it isn’t a rash decision.

Lots of things can be fixed using +R only, but prey drive that is reinforcing itself isn’t one of them, IMO.

I’d use the e-collar, put a stop to the behavior, and move on to enjoying time with your dog again.

I have been able to stop my puppy from chasing rabbits using +R, but he’s only four months old. I did the “Look at that!” game, and it seems to be working. I only mention it so that you don’t think I’m one to jump straight to the e-collar, because I’m not. But if I were in your shoes, I would probably use one.

[meupatdoes]

frenchfry I completely agree with your thoughts about the citronella. That scent will just hang around and muddle the timing. Some ecollar trainers even feel that vibration is of too long a duration, so the dog can stop doing the undesired behavior/start the desired behavior and the vibration still continues for a second or two - screws up the timing and confuses the dog.

You can always use the ecollar to stop the prey drive behavior, and then immediatelt +R the hell put of your chosen replacement behavior. Best of both worlds.

[french_fry]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8733722]
frenchfry I completely agree with your thoughts about the citronella. That scent will just hang around and muddle the timing. Some ecollar trainers even feel that vibration is of too long a duration, so the dog can stop doing the undesired behavior/start the desired behavior and the vibration still continues for a second or two - screws up the timing and confuses the dog.

You can always use the ecollar to stop the prey drive behavior, and then immediatelt +R the hell put of your chosen replacement behavior. Best of both worlds.[/QUOTE]

That’s interesting about the vibration!

Do you have a collar you recommend? I’m looking at the Dogtra IQ and really waffling as to whether I should do this totally under the guidance of a trainer or if I should try it myself since it’s a pretty straightforward process for recall.

I’m not a total idiot when it comes to training - my dog passed her CGC with flying colors a couple of months after I got her and just tested into Therapy 2 training to become a therapy dog (the kind that visits people in hospitals, etc. - not the kind I sneak on a plane with me!)

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=french fry;8733729]
That’s interesting about the vibration!

Do you have a collar you recommend? I’m looking at the Dogtra IQ and really waffling as to whether I should do this totally under the guidance of a trainer or if I should try it myself since it’s a pretty straightforward process for recall.

I’m not a total idiot when it comes to training - my dog passed her CGC with flying colors a couple of months after I got her and just tested into Therapy 2 training to become a therapy dog (the kind that visits people in hospitals, etc. - not the kind I sneak on a plane with me!)[/QUOTE]

I purchase everything from gun dog supply.

I initially purchased a collar just for going off leash in the woods, so my first collar was a big GPS situation with two antennas and a 7 mile radius for locating the dog, etc.

Then later I got bark collars with an additional ability to use as e collar. I can’t remember which exactly but they have rechargeable batteries, which is important to me. If you call up gun dog supply they are very helpful and give good advice about what exactly fits your needs best.

You could always have a trainer come out for the first tine just to be sure if that would make you more comfortable. I mean, even riders who know how to ride still take lessons on their babies, right? I think elyou would be fine without, but maybe more comfortable/confident with.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=TheJenners;8733583]
As an aside, can someone explain how the shock collar works for heel??

My nearly 11 mos Aussie, I leash trained around six or seven months and he was good. Then we went a month or two without it because life, then he was spending a lot of time with my dogs’ “auntie” who is a good friend and not so much a disciplinarian. As in, if she is on the couch she lets the puppy jump on her head, not kidding. Anyway, now I am in a situation where I have to lead the dogs to a potty area, and he pulls like a freight train. Simple correction with the leash gets no where, he would rather keep pulling and hack when when I correct than not pull. I already ordered an e-collar, am wondering how this might actually help with that as well? :)[/QUOTE]

It is the same as teaching heel with a collar & lead. When the dog is in “correct” position, you praise and/or give treats, and when it leaves the correct position you give it a mild correction with the collar until it returns to the correct position. I would imagine that using a leash to help shape the “correct position” would make this a lot easier, too.

But you have to teach the dog what the collar means, first. Usually people overlay a collar with a known command, like sit. Ask for sit, if the dog sits they get praise/reward…if the dog doesn’t, you use mild stimulation on the collar until the dog does the command, and then you stop. (R-)

People that I know who have used a collar for heel have done it for teaching heel around birds/ducks for competition, and have found it to be very effective. The guys I know that have done this have already used e-collars on their dogs for other commands (recall, whoa, etc.) so the dog definitely understands the point of the collar. [Just to give you an idea of what they are doing with the dog in competition - the dog has to heel through a course of gates (like a slalom ski course) at the edge of a pond, at which they will retrieve a duck after a series of commands and distraction shooting. It’s definitely the kind of environment where training with R+ might not be strong enough to keep the from ignoring the handler. The obvious reward is the pond with ducks in it; and they cannot choose that or they will fail.]

[TheJenners]

I assumed, but you know what they say

Thank you!

[RodeoHunter]

I have the Garmin Delta Sport collar and used it on my hangry lab who started bolting two doors down to eat hot dogs fed by another dog owner. You start with the minimum registered shock level and I really only had to shock him twice. After that I moved to the vibrate and only needed to do that a few times over 2-3 days. Each time he would come running to me like MOM SOMETHING HAPPENED OVER THERE and I would reward him for coming. So it is still R+ even with the stim.

[stb]

[QUOTE=S1969;8733799]
It is the same as teaching heel with a collar & lead. When the dog is in “correct” position, you praise and/or give treats, and when it leaves the correct position you give it a mild correction with the collar until it returns to the correct position. I would imagine that using a leash to help shape the “correct position” would make this a lot easier, too.

But you have to teach the dog what the collar means, first. Usually people overlay a collar with a known command, like sit. Ask for sit, if the dog sits they get praise/reward…if the dog doesn’t, you use mild stimulation on the collar until the dog does the command, and then you stop. (R-)

People that I know who have used a collar for heel have done it for teaching heel around birds/ducks for competition, and have found it to be very effective. The guys I know that have done this have already used e-collars on their dogs for other commands (recall, whoa, etc.) so the dog definitely understands the point of the collar. [Just to give you an idea of what they are doing with the dog in competition - the dog has to heel through a course of gates (like a slalom ski course) at the edge of a pond, at which they will retrieve a duck after a series of commands and distraction shooting. It’s definitely the kind of environment where training with R+ might not be strong enough to keep the from ignoring the handler. The obvious reward is the pond with ducks in it; and they cannot choose that or they will fail.][/QUOTE]

This is the way I was taught to use an e-collar. I used to compete in hunt tests with my dogs and spent a lot of time training with professionals. I had two Master Hunter dogs as well as others that had lesser titles. The dog should be collar conditioned to begin with, which means giving a command that the dog knows and using the collar like a crop if the dog doesn’t comply. The dog must understand how to turn the pressure off. Never teach with the collar, and always give the dog the opportunity to comply before using it.

The proper sequence for the collar is command, collar, command. So, here, collar nick, here. Also, “leave it” is what we used to tell the dog to ignore something. We also used a “no bird” command in more advanced raining. I wouldn’t use a citronella collar, way too imprecise. That smell gets in their nose and lingers and they have no idea when they are doing the right thing or not.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=french fry;8733670]
I have the opportunity to consult with a trainer my friend has used in the past. He primarily works with hunting dogs and his methods are a little old school for my tastes - absolutely nothing scary or abusive but use of the ecollar and “pack leader” principle type stuff. I worry that my goofy little mushball of a timid rescue will be overwhelmed with his training style, but he has produced MAGICAL results in other dogs I’ve known - they are so happy and carefree because they can do so many things (off leash anywhere, accompany their owners more places because they’re so well behaved, etc.) and the training definitely hasn’t taken the sparkle out of their eyes.

I’m sure the +R people are going to be all, “don’t doooo itttttt” and everyone else is going to be all, “doooo ittttt” but I thought I’d throw it out there for the board since I’ve gotten such thoughtful responses.[/QUOTE]

I always say - it depends on the trainer. The “style” they use is only one part of the training. Someone can be abusive verbally - and never need an e-collar. Or they can be “strict” but fair, and some can give tough corrections and abundant praise and it balances out. One of the hunting dog trainers I have worked with was a little too tough on my dog; but it was his voice that was the problem, not the collar. But, he also gave the most effusive praise ever. Many dogs do great with him; mine was just too sensitive (to be fair to the trainer, my dog is a perfectionist, and even my obedience trainer has to be careful around him because he never wants to be wrong. Which is, according to her, a lot harder to work with than dogs that seem impervious to correction.)

I would go ahead and meet with a trainer, and let your gut guide you. I would tell you to trust your gut, though. I could tell immediately with my trainer that it wasn’t working but I doubted myself and didn’t step in. Which required us to backtrack and retrain/fix some issues.

[snowrider]

If you’re concerned about using one I’ve never used a shock collar before and for the past 6 months I’ve regularly watched a dog that wears one and have used it several times. It’s really fairly simple in practice and with your horse experience you will pick this up quickly I bet.

This dog is a very custom bred retriever and barely a dog at all when she sees some birds, more of a fetching bio-robot, lol. It’s totally fine, she behaves if you use it but it’s obviously not traumatizing to her like it would be to a normal dog who’s brain has room for things other than “GET BIRD!!”

[S1969]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8736234]
It’s totally fine, she behaves if you use it but it’s obviously not traumatizing to her like it would be to a normal dog who’s brain has room for things other than “GET BIRD!!”[/QUOTE]

Using a shock collar correctly should never be traumatizing for a dog. The intent is not to hurt them, but to remind them. Many dogs respond perfectly with just the vibration or “beep” of a collar, once they understand how it works. Some dogs might need more stimulation, and the necessary level might change depending on the situation – practicing recall in the backyard is different than in a big field planted with quail.

[snowrider]

Oh believe me if you tried to use one on my husky she’d need years of therapy. And my friends lab they used one years ago, properly and only a couple times and he still pees himself if something beeps. If you have a very soft dog I don’t think there’s any way to use one on them. Knowing your dog is important. As many ruined gun dog owners can attest.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=snowrider;8737086]
Oh believe me if you tried to use one on my husky she’d need years of therapy. And my friends lab they used one years ago, properly and only a couple times and he still pees himself if something beeps. If you have a very soft dog I don’t think there’s any way to use one on them. Knowing your dog is important. As many ruined gun dog owners can attest.[/QUOTE]

I suppose there are dogs that are overly sensitive to many things. In general, when using an e-collar you put it on the lowest possible setting and turn it up in tiny increments, stopping when you notice that the dog feels anything. My dog turned around, looking for whatever touched him; it must have felt like someone touched him on the back or something because he did it several times. Not scared or upset, but curious. That’s where you start when training with an e-collar, or using the beep or vibrate (although some dogs find the noise worse than a low stim setting).

But yes, you can ruin even a tough dog by frying them. I mentioned above that one of the trainers I worked with overcorrected my dog using his voice. In his case, and maybe in many of the other cases of dogs being ruined - the real issue was that the dog was being corrected but didn’t know why. That’s why shock collars can be very dangerous in the wrong hands - because some people will just use them without training the dog what the correct behavior is - so it seems random to the dog and (naturally) they lose confidence.

I had a friend like this - he had a totally untrained, annoying dog, and would yell “leave it” at it for everything – if he jumped, if he tried to grab food, if he wouldn’t lay down, etc. I don’t know why he didn’t seem to realize that those should use different commands. Last time I saw him he had an e-collar on (in the house, so that’s a bad sign) and I imagine that rather than yelling “leave it” all the time he was just zapping the poor dog for “bad” behavior. :no: