Dog Food without legumes - recommendations

[Townsend]

I switched both my dogs (Standard Poodles) to grain inclusive about 10 months ago because of what I had researched with the nutritional DCM and because my vet felt there was merit to the issue. My younger dog is eating PPP Sensitive Skin and Stomach (Salmon) and doing well on it and she has a touchy stomach and is hard to switch, I just took my time with her and did it very gradually over 3 weeks or so. My older one is very picky and I tried several brands with her that she turned her nose up at, but she is now happily eating Stella and Chewy’s new wholesome grains raw coated kibble. It comes in beef, which is what she’s eating) and chicken and is legume free. It is also extremely expensive (of course it is since it’s what she decided she will eat LOL) but you can get $5 off coupons here and there so that’s helpful and since I’m only feeding it to her, it’s lasting a while…

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[Sobriska]

Raw. Everything my dogs need and I control whats in the food.

[LauraKY]

@Townsend

I switched both my dogs (Standard Poodles) to grain inclusive about 10 months ago because of what I had researched with the nutritional DCM and because my vet felt there was merit to the issue. My younger dog is eating PPP Sensitive Skin and Stomach (Salmon) and doing well on it and she has a touchy stomach and is hard to switch, I just took my time with her and did it very gradually over 3 weeks or so. My older one is very picky and I tried several brands with her that she turned her nose up at, but she is now happily eating Stella and Chewy’s new wholesome grains raw coated kibble. It comes in beef, which is what she’s eating) and chicken and is legume free. It is also extremely expensive (of course it is since it’s what she decided she will eat LOL) but you can get $5 off coupons here and there so that’s helpful and since I’m only feeding it to her, it’s lasting a while…

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I’ve tried several foods with grains. She’s sensitive to something in them. As I said, I have a new limited ingredient food I’ll be trying.

It’s the not the grain free that appears to be the problem in the grainfree, it’s the peas and legumes.

[Simkie]

@LauraKY

It’s the not the grain free that appears to be the problem in the grainfree, it’s the peas and legumes.

It’s not very clear what the problem is at all at this point–it’s really a lot of guess work

Natural Balance kibbles appear on the FDA release 20 times (that I was able to count.) Variety is not always listed. But they are certainly not without mention. Potato is not necessarily any “safer”–it’s really unclear what is.

[LauraKY]

@Simkie

It’s not very clear what the problem is at all at this point–it’s really a lot of guess work

Natural Balance kibbles appear on the FDA release 20 times (that I was able to count.) Variety is not always listed. But they are certainly not without mention. Potato is not necessarily any “safer”–it’s really unclear what is.

The variety I’m trying appears to be the only grain free food (other than raw, Stellas, etc) that doesn’t contain legumes, peas or pulses. Many of the others contain legumes, peas and/or pulses plus potatoes.

[Simkie]

@LauraKY

The variety I’m trying appears to be the only grain free food (other than raw, Stellas, etc) that doesn’t contain legumes, peas or pulses. Many of the others contain legumes, peas and/or pulses plus potatoes.

But, as you can see from the chart the FDA released, potato diets have been “implicated”…

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[LauraKY]

@Simkie

But, as you can see from the chart the FDA released, potato diets have been “implicated”…

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What’s really interesting is that Purina Pro Plan (some of which contain potatoes) is not implicated. It may very well be that the “boutique” foods don’t have adequate nutritional testing and are missing some important nutrient.

[LauraKY]

It’s really interesting - Purina ProPlan has several types containing pea protein yet they don’t appear on the list of DCM correlated foods. Perhaps it’s a problem with boutique dog foods with inadequate testing (as was originally suggested) rather than pea or legume protein. Perhaps it’s a balance of the amount of pea/legume protein along with potatoes. Perhaps it’s a missing nutrient altogether.

[Simkie]

@LauraKY

It’s really interesting - Purina ProPlan has several types containing pea protein yet they don’t appear on the list of DCM correlated foods. Perhaps it’s a problem with boutique dog foods with inadequate testing (as was originally suggested) rather than pea or legume protein. Perhaps it’s a balance of the amount of pea/legume protein along with potatoes. Perhaps it’s a missing nutrient altogether.

Very much agree it’s very murky.

Maybe it’s just due to the fact that people who have the $$ to feed fancy kibbles are also the people who are most likely to pursue $$ diagnostics when their dogs are ill…

[LauraKY]

@Simkie

Very much agree it’s very murky.

Maybe it’s just due to the fact that people who have the $$ to feed fancy kibbles are also the people who are most likely to pursue $$ diagnostics when their dogs are ill…

Considering that many respected breeders and owners of show dogs feed ProPlan, that’s pretty doubtful.

From Tufts Clinical Nutrition Divison: [LIST=1]

[I]It’s not just grain-free. This does not appear to be just an issue with grain-free diets. I am calling the suspected diets, “BEG” diets – boutique companies, exotic ingredients, or grain-free diets. The apparent link between BEG diets and DCM may be due to ingredients used to replace grains in grain-free diets, such as lentils or chickpeas, but also may be due to other common ingredients commonly found in BEG diets, such as exotic meats, vegetables, and fruits. In addition, not all pet food manufacturers have the same level of nutritional expertise and quality control, and this variability could introduce potential issues with some products.[/I] [/LIST][LIST=1]

[I]Most dogs being diagnosed with DCM do [U]not[/U] have low taurine levels. Some owners continue to feed a BEG diet but supplement taurine thinking that this will reduce their risk for heart disease. In our hospital, we currently measure taurine in all dogs with DCM, but more than 90% of our patients with DCM in which taurine has been measured have normal levels (and the majority are eating BEG diets). Yet some of these dogs with DCM and normal taurine levels improve when their diets are changed. This suggests that there’s something else playing a role in most cases – either a deficiency of a different nutrient or even a toxicity that may be associated with BEG diets. Giving taurine is unlikely to prevent DCM unless your dog has taurine deficiency. And given the lack of quality control for dietary supplements, you can introduce new risks to your dog if you give a supplement without evidence that she needs it.[/I] [/LIST][LIST=1]

[I]Raw diets and homemade diets are not safe alternatives. Out of concern, some owners are switching from BEG diets to a raw or home-cooked diet. However, we have diagnosed DCM in dogs eating these diets too. And raw and home-cooked diets increase your dog’s risk for many other health problems. So, forego the raw or home-cooked diets and stick with a commercial pet food made by a well-established manufacturer that contains common ingredients, including grains. If your dog requires a home-prepared diet for a medical condition or you feel strongly about feeding one, I strongly recommend you consult with a Board-Certified Veterinary Nutritionist[SUP]®[/SUP] (acvn.org). However, because home-cooked diets are not tested for safety and nutritional adequacy like good quality commercial diets, deficiencies could still develop.[/I] [/LIST]https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/

There have been no cases of DCM reported with Hills or Royal Canin either - both have prescription veterinary lines that may include potatoes. I’m guessing that people willing to pay $$$$ for prescription dog food are fairly likely to do expensive diagnostic tests too.

In any case, carry on. I’m consulting the OSU nutritionist. I’ll follow their recommendation - which is where I should have started (and ended) and not on social media.

[Simkie]

@LauraKY

There have been no cases of DCM reported with Hills or Royal Canin either - both have prescription veterinary lines that may include potatoes. I’m guessing that people willing to pay $$$$ for prescription dog food are fairly likely to do expensive diagnostic tests too.

Huh? The first report on the FDA spreadsheet is Hills.

And there are a few ProPlan on there too
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[LauraKY]

@Simkie

Huh? The first report on the FDA spreadsheet is Hills.

And there are a few ProPlan on there too
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Yes, but it’s not on the list the FDA connected to DCM. It’s an owner report. In most of the other cases, HIll’s and ProPlan were the foods owners changed to after a diagnosis of DCM. In the case of the first report regarding Hill’s food it’s a Dalmation, a breed highly prone to DCM.

Here’s the list the FDA associates with DCM:

• Acana
• Zignature
• Taste of the Wild
• 4Health
• Earthborn Holistic
• Blue Buffalo
• Nature’s Domain
• Fromm
• Merrick
• California Natural
• Natural Balance
• Orijen
• Nature’s Variety
• NutriSource
• Nutro
• Rachael Ray Nutrish

[Simkie]

@LauraKY no, those are just the kibbles that have been reported the most.

[LauraKY]

@Simkie

@LauraKY no, those are just the kibbles that have been reported the most.

Yes, but if you actually read the FDA reporting table you’ll see the three I listed aren’t really associated with DCM, in many cases, they were fed after the DCM diagnosis, particularly the ProPlan.

You’re conflating mentions on the FDA table with a correlation to DCM when no such correlation exists.

I should have known better than to come here to ask in the first place. The OSU nutritionist has recommended ProPlan lamb & oatmeal, so I won’t need any more suggestions. Thank you to everyone who came up with suggestions.

[Simkie]

@LauraKY

Yes, but if you actually read the FDA reporting table you’ll see the three I listed aren’t really associated with DCM, in many cases, they were fed after the DCM diagnosis, particularly the ProPlan.

You’re conflating mentions on the FDA table with a correlation to DCM when no such correlation exists.

I should have known better than to come here to ask in the first place. The OSU nutritionist has recommended ProPlan lamb & oatmeal, so I won’t need any more suggestions. Thank you to everyone who came up with suggestions.

Yeah, that’s the problem at this point. There is no causation. It’s all loose correlation. Correlation does not equal causation. As you pointed out above, it’s very nebulous. All the FDA is going on at this point is a handful of brands that have been reported more than the others, in an exceedingly small sample size.

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[WNT]

The thing that really irritates me about the brand list that the FDA released is that there is no breakdown of the exact foods implicated. For example, Fromm has three main dry food lines. Two are completely grain-inclusive (Classic and Gold), while about half of their 4-Star line is grain-free, the others contain grains. Are all the Fromm foods a risk, or just the ones that may contain suspect ingredients?

[Simkie]

@WNT

The thing that really irritates me about the brand list that the FDA released is that there is no breakdown of the exact foods implicated. For example, Fromm has three main dry food lines. Two are completely grain-inclusive (Classic and Gold), while about half of their 4-Star line is grain-free, the others contain grains. Are all the Fromm foods a risk, or just the ones that may contain suspect ingredients?

No one knows, because there’s no clear cause. You can go download the reported cases from the FDA site, and do a ctrl+f for “Fromm” and see what’s been reported, though. Unfortunately, more often than not, the specific flavor doesn’t GET reported, just the brand, so it’s difficult (at best) to draw any conclusions.

But everyone interested in this stuff should definitely go look at the spreadsheet of reports. :yes: