This is the distinction I make. And the American or Field types are often much higher energy compared to their English or conformation cousins. There is a very good breeder near us, she’s been doing it for over 50 years now. My mom bought her first lab from her before I was even born, the next couple were during my lifetime, many field trial championships, and my sister now has a 1yo female from her. Beautiful dog, but very high energy. She’s already showing that she’ll be a superstar gun dog though.
I’ve currently got an Aussie x Bernese cross. She was a rehoming situation. A very cool dog. Not as obsessive as an Aussie, but much more athletic than a Bernese. I skijor with her, have done obedience, agility, tricks and just started her as a therapy dog to visit long term care facilities. She does shed, but it clumps into tumbleweeds that makes it easy to clean. No one can guess her breeding until I point it out. She’s a blue Merle, tall, and about 75lbs.
As an aside. I would never buy a puppy from anyone other than a breeder who can demonstrate that the parents were worth breeding, they better be health tested, and it’s just as important to me that they do their best to match their puppies to appropriate homes.
In the case of adult dogs than it’s a matter of finding a dog who appeals to you with a personality that you will fall in love with.
I get sad whenever I see any type of “designer dog” described in absolute terms. I have a purebred Poodle, and “doodles” are so popular I tend to pay more attention to them then other purposefully bred mixed breeds.
It drives me a little crazy to hear people say that you’ll end up with the “best” of each breed, as if it is a given. You might, but you might not. I don’t know one reputable breeder of any breed that endorses mixed breeding. Let that sink in for a minute. The people who know their breeds the best, what the various lines represented in their programs bring to the table genetically? They are not the ones breeding for “designer dogs”.
The people who are producing these mixed breeds are not using the best of each breed. In my experience their breeding dogs are pet quality at best, with little or no health testing. Goldens with poor hips will pass on those poor hips just as often in a litter of Golden/Poodle mixes as they would in a little of purebred Goldens. With doodles the “type” is all over the board. Yes, I know that purebred dogs were developed from mixing different breeds to get a fixed, consistent type. I just don’t see that careful planning happening in the current batch of mixed breed dogs.
There is a local breeder who routinely produces puppies with liver shunt problems. Her Yorkie stud passes on the genetic abnormality to his offspring, which are all Maltese/Yorkie mixes. She charges (and gets) $3,000 a pup. If the foundation is weak, there is no hope of a solid structure.
Without a plan and some guiding principal, you just end up with a bunch of people producing puppies willy nilly for the pet market. And the price tags on these puppies is astronomical. I just don’t understand it.
Sheilah
In my area it’s the same with Cockapoo and Maltipoo … the variety seems to be endless. The dogs we call purebred dogs today started as mixed dogs before setting a standard/getting approval. There are certainly respectable people trying to breed new breeds - but I’m afraid they are a minority when it comes to ‘designer dogs’ ( people still buy dogs ‘produced’ in puppy mills, I don’t get this lack of education)
I think the OP posted somewhere her SO didn’t want a house dog, why the requirement it be able to stay outside and that outside was in a cold, snowy environment.
Maybe the difference between why she wants a dog to care for and her SO not being too interested could be in their genes, as this article seems to indicate:
I think what many people who aren’t really familiar with genetics and breeding (of any species) don’t know or forget or understand is that passing on traits isn’t an “average” of the parents for the most part. It’s passing on traits based on which gene from the parent is dominant or recessive and how that gene is passed on. Kinda like how it seems that some think that breeding a big horse to a small horse will yield an average size offspring… maybe but also maybe you’ll get a big one or a small one.
IMO, the more diverse the gene pool is of the parents, the more diverse the offspring will be. If one is looking to breed for species survival, then genetic diversity is good. If one is looking for a pet puppy or a purpose bred horse, then maybe genetic diversity ends up in more of a cr*p shoot (again IMO ). Yeah, I may be preaching to the choir for sure
I have had Labs for 30+ years and love them to death, but they are not for everyone. The shedding is pretty much non-stop and when they “ blow” their winter coats they stink. A lot. I vacuum and wash bedding every day from April to late May, so if that isn’t your thing, a Lab may not work for you.
Labs tend to be very friendly and don’t understand personal space. That’s ok when they’re clean and dry, but if you live on a farm, they will happily share whatever they have rolled in or eaten. Did I mention they can be pretty smelly?
Labs are wonderful, loving dogs and make friends wherever they go. My dogs go where I go and sleep on the furniture with DH and me and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
And a side note about silver or charcoal Labs. They are not recognized by the AKC or The Labrador Retriever Club. They may be lovely dogs, but they are not Labradors Retrievers.
So, so true of mine. He gets so excited about going for a walk that I have to put him in another room so I can put on my shoes. Otherwise he’s right in there either trying himself (nose, paws, panting, floppy ears) to get those shoe laces tied as fast as possible so we can go now, or discouraging me from bothering with shoes at all so we can go now. It’s hard to get out the door at all if he’s helping hurry things along. :winkgrin:
Yep that can be trained, but as much as I love and treasure him, he can wear out anybody with all the things he needs to be trained to back off and give the person a chance to do it without his nose, paws, panting, eagerness, and rapidly waving tail smashing into it. Plus he’s 75 lbs of pure energy and enthusiasm (and many labs are bigger than that).
But handled properly, he is very trainable and reliable about what he’s taken on board. He’s great with kids because they can learn how to teach him new little tricks, and he delightedly picks it up quickly.
And he has the happiest attitude and wakes up to a good day every day.
Regarding silver and charcoal labs, I understand that the AKC doesn’t regonize them, but they are Labrador Retrievers. If not, what are they? They are simply a dilute chocolate in the case of silver and dilute black in the case of charcoal. For some reason, I thought that you could still register them as chocolate or black. I thought that applied to AKC but I’ll have to look as I cannot recall.
With my labs (usually have one at a time) I’ve never encountered a smell except for when they were wet after swimming. People commented on the lack of dog smell in my house, and I also enjoyed that they didn’t have that strong dog smell. So I don’t know. I am dogless at the moment and I am about to get another lab, so I’m curious about this shed time smell thing. I may also be a terrible person as I’ve always trained them to stay off of beds and couches. Of course they had their own dog furniture such as beds. I think that is just a personal choice and I have nothing against other owners allowing their dogs on furniture and beds.
The shedding can definitely be a lot, usually with brushing, a Roomba, and my obsessive cleaning habits, it’s manageable. I also put on my dress clothes right before I walk out the door in the morning so that I don’t accidentally look like a human lint roller should I contact a dog on while I’m around the house getting ready. :winkgrin:
Collies are awesome dogs and I had several roughs, now have a smooth that I have had for 13 years and she was the Best trail dog . I have a long haired shepherd that is Incredible! My first shepherd and is so intelligent and happy to be inside or outside. He has his agility title. I highly recommend a long hair shepherd! I did do a lot of training with him - but I think all dogs should go to “school” like children. I have a friend who bought a springer spaniel from a reputable kennel that others had bought from and it ended up getting " springer rage". Never heard of it before, but , it is a real thing! Although I have some friends with standard poodles, I have seen so many with temperament/aggression problems, barking _ I just can’t recommend them. The man who invented the breed Labradoodle , now says its the worse thing he ever did. You mentioned English Setter - just remember, if you get a hunting breed, their genetics are to Hunt - therefore, you may have a dog that Wanders away a lot to hunt. I have a friend who just got a golden doodle and it is nervous and has separation anxiety. A good breeder will have proven parents who consistently produce good temperament without any health issues…
I 100% agree with Sunkistbey. I have had many labradors and have competed in hunt tests, obedience, and conformation shows with mine.
Regarding silver and charcoal labs - they are widely regarded to have weimaraner blood in order to get dilute colors. They are not recognized by the AKC and no decent labrador breeder would breed them.
I love my labs but I do not think they are ideal farm dogs. I had labs before my farm, and it was easier to live with my dogs in the suburbs than here on the farm. They are obsessed, with eating poop - horse, chicken, deer, rabbit - whatever. Then, as Sunkistbey says, they want to schmooze all over you afterward.
As far as labs smelling, that is largely a result of food and grooming. Many dogs that smell bad have a chronic yeast infection going on. That said, I currently have two labs right now. One is a yellow that smells delightful. Honestly, she actually smells good (like Michael in the movie, if anyone remembers that). She can go forever without a bath and you can bury your nose in her and she smells good. My other is a chocolate boy that tends to get doggy smelling. The smell does not correlate with shedding, he has just more of a natural smell. He also has a more oily coat and can mark up walls or furniture by laying against them (which he does all. the. time.) I have had many labs throughout my life and he is the smelliest one for sure.
Labs are hair tornadoes. Don’t even consider one unless you don’t mind vacuuming frequently. Hair tumbleweeds are a thing.
Also, labs need lots of attention and lots of exercise. They are not suited to be left outside all the time (actually, I don’t think any dog is).
They are cross-bred dogs – Lab x Weimaraner. A correctly bred lab simply does not have a “dilute” gene. The only way for it to get there is crossbreeding, and it is suspected that the other breed is Weimaraner.
You can register them as chocolate or black - if you don’t mind lying. That’s how they get registered. AKC is just a breed registry; they don’t conduct inspections. And even their DNA registry is limited; it can prove (disprove) parentage (if requested) but does not prove breeding. So if someone registers a cross-bred dog as a lab, AKC isn’t going to challenge it.
This is an article from the Labrador parent club about “Silver Labs”, English v. American types, and Labradoodles:
Cross-breeding happens in many breeds, for different reasons. It’s a very frustrating problem for breeders that want to preserve the breed.
In my breed people cross-breed to produce field dogs that are bigger and more able to compete with pointers and setters. And they swear that it is just a “big white dog” and say that all dogs don’t have to meet the “show standard” (which is technically called the “breed standard.”)
I agree that they’re still labs in the sense if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…but if the AKC, CKC, etc doesn’t recognize them than IMO they aren’t representative of the breed and they don’t meet the breed standard. I’m sure there are some very nice ones out there and I can see how they would appeal to people.
On a similar note, I feel like smacking people who tell me they have a “golden” lab, ahh
I think food plays a big part in the smell a dog “emits”. I’ll never forget my grandfather switched his German wire hair to a different food and within a couple days she smelled like she’d been rolling in rotten fish, you couldn’t even pet her or your hands would smell, he switched her back and the smell went away within a couple days.
If I were the OP I would avoid anything in the hound group.
Sporting breeds may be a good match. Poodles may be the best compromise with your SO, I have also met a few with issues, mostly related to being high energy dogs with lazy owners. You may be better off going the puppy route and being upfront with the breeder that you’d prefer something lower energy and that a “pet quality” puppy is ok.
Interesting, thanks for the article. I’ve read conflicting information about the Weimaraner introducing the dilute gene. There are strong indications of this, but no firm proof according to most. However, I don’t think it’s out of the question at all that this happened and is highly likely.
I’m not that into dogs in that I don’t breed or snow, but do want to support the good breeders out there. I just choose a responsible and reputable breeder, then love and train the dog I’ve chosen. I get all of my dogs (coincidentally they’ve all been female) fixed, so no breeding as I said. I don’t have a huge stake in this aside from wanting a healthy, athletic, and trainable creature. However, I can’t totally understand the desire to keep a breed pure. Otherwise, what’s the purpose of the breed, really. Passing something as a purebred that’s not, is irritating.
Off the top of my head, and through my browsing for a lab myself, I’ve seen these colors available within 150km of me:
Chapagne (a form of yellow lab?)
Charcoal
Silver
Fox red
Chocolate
Black
Yellow
The top 4 were all new to me as I’ve always only known the bottom 3 and have only owned black labs. I really thought that labs only came in 3 colors. I suppose pure labs do only come in 3 colors.
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Well it is possible that some of these are purebred labs, but that they are being bred/selected for by color as the top criteria.
My breed comes in 3 colors and two patterns (orange, liver or tricolored, clear or roan patterns). Good breeders understand which traits are recessive (e.g. orange is recessive), and also know that the exact color can vary (e.g. orange can range from a butterscotch color to a carroty orange, to a dark mahogany). The standard states that “washed out colors are not desirable” - so a lemony color would be a huge fault. But aside from avoiding breeding a color fault, breeders do not breed for the shade of the color, ever. There are many other traits that are far more important - body proportions, type, movement, etc. Shade and markings are not important unless they are extreme.
It would be possible, I think, to select only lemony colored dogs and eventually be able to produce it fairly predictably - but it would definitely have to come at the expense of the rest of the dog. It would still be purebred but it is possible that nothing about the dog would look like it is supposed to - not just the color.
Labs only come in 3 colors, black, yellow and chocolate. Yellow can vary from light to dark which is sometimes called fox red. There are no silver or charcoal Labs. The breed doesn’t have a dilute gene.
Interesting about food being a contributor to smell. My current dog is definitely the smelliest one I’ve ever had as well as the most obsessive about eating. I’m going to ask vet about that at next appointment.
Good luck OP. Hope you find the best dog for your set up.
Totally true. The only colors recognized are black, yellow, and chocolate. Any other color description is BS, and would be a good indication to stay away from that particular “breeder”. No good breeder will advertise their pups like that. None. Nada. Zip.
Also, a good breeder should ask you a million questions, check your references, and insist that if you ever can not keep the dog for any reason then the dog should come back to the breeder. The parent dogs should have clearances (eyes, hips, elbows, heart) and should be good representatives of the breed. The puppies will be expensive, because clearances cost money and many dogs wash out for one clearance or another.
In German we make the difference between ‘breeder’ (FCI) and ‘multiplier’ (correct term in English?). Multipliers just produce dogs, without documents, without responsibility.
I love my Australian Stumpy Tailed Cattle dog. He was a chewing monster when young but has matured into the ultimate companion animal. He is EXTREMELY loyal, is athletic enough to go running, but chill enough to enjoy being a couch potato at times as well. He comes to the barn, is good around horses cats and other dogs, friendly with strangers. Just overall easy to deal with and not much of a shedder, only catch is he is a wimp about the cold so appreciates wearing jackets in the winter…
OP, good luck finding the right dog. All breeds have something to offer and purebreds have the advantage of being relatively predictable in size and appearance. However, when it comes to temperament, keep in mind that there’s a lot of intra-breed variability. In my experience, two dogs of the same breed and even very closely related can be completely different in personality and trainability. A new pup will always be a bit of a crapshoot.
The prevalence of cross-bred “designer” dogs is a such a divisive topic. I have a lot of sympathy for people who are dedicated to a specific breed, compete their dogs in conformation and performance shows, and who health test their breeding animals. I was such a person myself for many years. However, show breeders have a lot to answer for having created numerous breeds that are inherently unhealthy, e.g., extremely short faces, extremely long backs, extreme fragility, and just general maladaptive structures (consider the unfortunate bulldog). Please don’t argue that many purebreds are unhealthy due to “backyard” breeders. The maladaptive traits are purposely created and maintained since that is what the breed standard requires.
The reason for the popularity of designer cross-breeds is simple: many of them are adorable and make lovely, healthy pets. I disagree with the notion that an F1 cross can never improve on the two purebred parents. Sometimes a cross is exactly what is likely to create a better pet. For example, toy poodles are cute and smart, but extremely fragile. They can break a leg jumping off the couch (this recently happen to a friend, an excellent show breeder). Many other small breeds are considerably more sturdy, but have squashed faces, leading to breathing difficulties and low exercise tolerance. A toy poodle crossed with numerous other small breeds will tend to yield a less extreme version of either purebred parent and hence a healthier, happier little animal. Crossing a standard poodle with other breeds will tend to produce animals that shed less than many purebreds, which is appealing to many people. Of course, crossing breeds will not eliminate health concerns (cancer susceptibility, hip dysplasia, etc.) that are prevalent in both breeds. But neither will breeding two purebred parents given that so many breeds are riddled with health problems that testing cannot eliminate.
