I had a large cocker spaniel (50 lbs…not fat, but huge), that tore his at age 8. Did fishing line repair, and he recovered great. Had the fishing line fail later, but there was enough scar tissue that it didn’t affect him.
Had a chow mix tear his, and had the fishing line surgery, and he was a wimp, and wouldn’t even try to put it down, so he tore the other one a week later. He wouldn’t get up, so I carried him out to go to the bathroom, and held him by the tail once i put him on the ground, so he could potty. Took him back to vet and left him there for about 5 days for rehab. They got him walking (said he didn’t walk with me, because he knew I’d carry him!). The vet didn’t recommend surgery on the other since he didn’t do well after the first one. He later developed arthritis in the 2nd leg, but still got around for another 9 yrs. Had to be put down at 17 due to acute spinal pain.
i had two english mastiffs that were diagnosed with cruciate ruptures. all but one vet strongly urged me to get TPLOs on them.
i researched this topic very hard, and talked to many, many people with experience.
in the end, i decided against the surgery. what i learned is that if you don’t do the surgery, but instead do the same confinement and rehabilitation you would do as if you had had the surgery, the dog will recover. scar tissue forms in the joint and stabilizes it. and there is a lot less arthritis than with the tplo.
the tplo is a very invasive and painful surgery. basically, they cut the leg in half and then screw it back together at a different angle. the dog never has a normal gait again, and the rate of failure was unacceptably high even if done by the inventor of the tplo, a vet in portland, oregon, who is now retired.
for those who learned the surgery from him, the failure rates were even higher.
vets are quick to recommend the surgery, and even a holistic vet i consulted was very skeptical that a mastiff would do well with no surgery.
both my mastiffs made full recoveries with no surgery.
there is no harm in trying it. this approach is called “conservative management”. i learned the most from a yahoo group that was very actively discussing it and had lots of research papers they cited.
if you try it and it doesn’t work, you can still resort to surgery.
most of the mastiff breeders i know who have had tplos done on their dogs told me they regretted getting the surgery.
the holistic vet was amazed at my dogs’ recoveries. her hypothesis: most vets urge this surgery because most dog owners don’t have the patience and dedication to do conservative management properly.
if you are a conscientious dog owner, you should get better results with CM.
i had two english mastiffs that were diagnosed with cruciate ruptures. all but one vet strongly urged me to get TPLOs on them.
i researched this topic very hard, and talked to many, many people with experience.
in the end, i decided against the surgery. what i learned is that if you don’t do the surgery, but instead do the same confinement and rehabilitation you would do as if you had had the surgery, the dog will recover. scar tissue forms in the joint and stabilizes it. and there is a lot less arthritis than with the tplo.
the tplo is a very invasive and painful surgery. basically, they cut the leg in half and then screw it back together at a different angle. the dog never has a normal gait again, and the rate of failure was unacceptably high even if done by the inventor of the tplo, a vet in portland, oregon, who is now retired.
for those who learned the surgery from him, the failure rates were even higher.
vets are quick to recommend the surgery, and even a holistic vet i consulted was very skeptical that a mastiff would do well with no surgery.
both my mastiffs made full recoveries with no surgery.
there is no harm in trying it. this approach is called “conservative management”. i learned the most from a yahoo group that was very actively discussing it and had lots of research papers they cited.
if you try it and it doesn’t work, you can still resort to surgery.
most of the mastiff breeders i know who have had tplos done on their dogs told me they regretted getting the surgery.
the holistic vet was amazed at my dogs’ recoveries. her hypothesis: most vets urge this surgery because most dog owners don’t have the patience and dedication to do conservative management properly.
if you are a conscientious dog owner, you should get better results with CM.
sorry about the double post!
[QUOTE=aliceo;8745154]
i had two english mastiffs that were diagnosed with cruciate ruptures. all but one vet strongly urged me to get TPLOs on them.
i researched this topic very hard, and talked to many, many people with experience.
in the end, i decided against the surgery. what i learned is that if you don’t do the surgery, but instead do the same confinement and rehabilitation you would do as if you had had the surgery, the dog will recover. scar tissue forms in the joint and stabilizes it. and there is a lot less arthritis than with the tplo.
the tplo is a very invasive and painful surgery. basically, they cut the leg in half and then screw it back together at a different angle. the dog never has a normal gait again, and the rate of failure was unacceptably high even if done by the inventor of the tplo, a vet in portland, oregon, who is now retired.
for those who learned the surgery from him, the failure rates were even higher.
vets are quick to recommend the surgery, and even a holistic vet i consulted was very skeptical that a mastiff would do well with no surgery.
both my mastiffs made full recoveries with no surgery.
there is no harm in trying it. this approach is called “conservative management”. i learned the most from a yahoo group that was very actively discussing it and had lots of research papers they cited.
if you try it and it doesn’t work, you can still resort to surgery.
most of the mastiff breeders i know who have had tplos done on their dogs told me they regretted getting the surgery.
the holistic vet was amazed at my dogs’ recoveries. her hypothesis: most vets urge this surgery because most dog owners don’t have the patience and dedication to do conservative management properly.
if you are a conscientious dog owner, you should get better results with CM.[/QUOTE]
Just curious, have you ever taken x-rays of your dogs for follow-up? Are you seeing any joint effusion / arthritis? And how active are your dogs?
My Pit Bull female is incredibly resilient. If you don’t know her x-rays, you would think she walks a little funny, and gets sore and tired after a lot of exercise, but is otherwise fine. She runs and jumps, and has been on 2-3hr hikes with me. But her x-rays tell a very different story… I wonder if some dogs just override the pain and do what they think they need to do anyways.
It is really hard to decide what to do. I have read all the arguments for and against the various surgeries. I feel that I have made an informed decision, and it still came out wrong… 
thank you for all the input. I would love to just give it time, but it’s totally torn, not a partial tear, so I think surgery is a must. will see which procedure they recommend. I did read that there is a high incidence of the other one tearing later but I think that partly depended on whether the original tear was from trauma or a general degeneration of the ligaments from age/arthritis. she is 45lbs.
I did read that there is a high incidence of the other one tearing later but I think that partly depended on whether the original tear was from trauma or a general degeneration of the ligaments from age/arthritis.
no. the reason the other one tears is because of the added strain put on that joint compensating for the injured leg.
a dog that small should not need a TPLO. when TPLOs fail, it is a horrendous failure and the dog can lose his leg.
even if your dog had a complete tear, he may recover just as well doing nothing. please join the yahoo group “conservative management” and read up and then decide.
both my mastiffs are dead now. the older one had a belatedly discovered congenital spinal defect that put an early end to his backpacking career. the younger one returned to backpacking in rough terrain after conservative management, but died at the age of 11 of a hemangiosarcoma.
[QUOTE=wizard;8745226]
thank you for all the input. I would love to just give it time, but it’s totally torn, not a partial tear, so I think surgery is a must. will see which procedure they recommend. I did read that there is a high incidence of the other one tearing later but I think that partly depended on whether the original tear was from trauma or a general degeneration of the ligaments from age/arthritis. she is 45lbs.[/QUOTE]
My husky was a full tear as well, not a partial tear.
[QUOTE=aliceo;8745153]
i had two english mastiffs that were diagnosed with cruciate ruptures. all but one vet strongly urged me to get TPLOs on them.
i researched this topic very hard, and talked to many, many people with experience.
in the end, i decided against the surgery. what i learned is that if you don’t do the surgery, but instead do the same confinement and rehabilitation you would do as if you had had the surgery, the dog will recover. scar tissue forms in the joint and stabilizes it. and there is a lot less arthritis than with the tplo.
the tplo is a very invasive and painful surgery. basically, they cut the leg in half and then screw it back together at a different angle. the dog never has a normal gait again, and the rate of failure was unacceptably high even if done by the inventor of the tplo, a vet in portland, oregon, who is now retired.
for those who learned the surgery from him, the failure rates were even higher.
vets are quick to recommend the surgery, and even a holistic vet i consulted was very skeptical that a mastiff would do well with no surgery.
both my mastiffs made full recoveries with no surgery.
there is no harm in trying it. this approach is called “conservative management”. i learned the most from a yahoo group that was very actively discussing it and had lots of research papers they cited.
if you try it and it doesn’t work, you can still resort to surgery.
most of the mastiff breeders i know who have had tplos done on their dogs told me they regretted getting the surgery.
the holistic vet was amazed at my dogs’ recoveries. her hypothesis: most vets urge this surgery because most dog owners don’t have the patience and dedication to do conservative management properly.
if you are a conscientious dog owner, you should get better results with CM.[/QUOTE]
This is not my experience or the experience off friends with medium to large dogs. Angle of back legs etc is the same as prior to the operation.
Now, my vet hospital would not have done English Mastiffs - they would have recommended either containment or amputation for a dog of that size.
I had TPLO surgery on my 50# Catahoula mix. She was very likely counter surfing or doing something crazy. The rehab was hard on me but it has been 3 years and she hasn’t taken a lame step since. She did stop jumping the wooden fence though.
Would do it again
This is not my experience or the experience off friends with medium to large dogs. Angle of back legs etc is the same as prior to the operation.
are you talking about the TPLO procedure? the whole point of it is to change the angle. dogs that get CCL ruptures usually get them because they are too straight stifled. the TPLO changes the angle of the stifle.
Now, my vet hospital would not have done English Mastiffs - they would have recommended either containment or amputation for a dog of that size.
in my experience, TPLOs are routinely done on English Mastiffs. again, are we talking about the same surgery? the breeder of my older Mastiff had several of her dogs done by the vet who invented the TPLO.
and a Mastiff would be unlikely to do well with an amputation.
When my dog tore hers (she was 7 at the time), the vet told me that her size (about 20lbs) was about the maximum size for which conservative therapy (rest, no surgery) should be considered. I don’t know the extent of the tear, but she regained a normal gait after taking the conservative approach. She eventually tore the ligament in the other leg, but again regained a normal gait after being restricted to rest.
I was warned that she would develop arthritis in the joint and it would be more severe than it would be if she had surgery. I put her on Dasequin to try and help with that. She died when she was 10, so she never reached a point where she was crippled with arthritis. (I was in a fellowship and money was very tight at the time; I rationalized that I would be better equipped financially in the future to treat her arthritis and do whatever necessary for her to be comfortable and happy than I was at the time to have the surgery… and possibly still have problems with arthritis.)
[QUOTE=aliceo;8746691]
are you talking about the TPLO procedure? the whole point of it is to change the angle. dogs that get CCL ruptures usually get them because they are too straight stifled. the TPLO changes the angle of the stifle.
in my experience, TPLOs are routinely done on English Mastiffs. again, are we talking about the same surgery? the breeder of my older Mastiff had several of her dogs done by the vet who invented the TPLO.
and a Mastiff would be unlikely to do well with an amputation.[/QUOTE]
As I said , my experience was different.
my large bred lab x had the same angle before and after. His rupture was from a very fast racing turn after a hare. Didn’t help when the other lab ran into him. His was titanium inserts and wire - what you are calling the TPLO . The other was for the same reason. Friends have had labs and other large breeds with the same op and all angles were the same. Vets were all concerned that the fishing line option would be a fail.
one friend had an English Mastiff who had a tear - they completed the titanium inserts and after 12 weeks the leg failed again. All standard care and recovery completed. Leg was removed. Vet said he wouldn’t have opera rated
His was titanium inserts and wire - what you are calling the TPLO .
i don’t believe that is a TPLO. i have never heard of titanium inserts and wire. must be a newer procedure.
in a TPLO, the bone is cut in a semi-circle, then reset at a different angle using brackets and screws.
The tibial plateau leveling osteotomy - TPLO involves making a curved cut in the top of the tibia bone (osteotomy) to include the tibial plateau. The tibial plateau is then rotated along the curved osteotomy in order to level the slope.A plate and screws are used to hold the tibial plateau in place so that the bone can heal in its new position.
from this link, which has illustrations:
[QUOTE=aliceo;8745154]
there is no harm in trying it. this approach is called “conservative management”. i learned the most from a yahoo group that was very actively discussing it and had lots of research papers they cited.
if you try it and it doesn’t work, you can still resort to surgery.
most of the mastiff breeders i know who have had tplos done on their dogs told me they regretted getting the surgery.
the holistic vet was amazed at my dogs’ recoveries. her hypothesis: most vets urge this surgery because most dog owners don’t have the patience and dedication to do conservative management properly.
if you are a conscientious dog owner, you should get better results with CM.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know where you are, but in my area, when “conservative management” comes out of someone’s mouth, 99% of the time it just means they don’t want to put up the $$ for surgery (see also “don’t want to put him through it”). Those people are VERY unlikely to do any rehab. In the other 1%, they might pursue stifle bracing or similar.
IME, the people who invest the time/money for surgery are also WAY more likely to followup with appropriate rehab.
Lastly, for any vet to make some sort of generalizing derogatory statements about her colleagues is incredibly unprofessional. My job is to recommend what’s best for the ANIMAL; what the owners choose to do with that info is up them. I don’t make assumptions of what owners can/will/want to do. It’s not my job to judge people.
[QUOTE=RaeHughes;8746633]
This is not my experience or the experience off friends with medium to large dogs. Angle of back legs etc is the same as prior to the operation.
Now, my vet hospital would not have done English Mastiffs - they would have recommended either containment or amputation for a dog of that size.[/QUOTE]
Amputation??? That doesn’t sound like a good idea for a first option when the other cruciate frequently ruptures too.
OP: talk to your vet, do a consult with another vet if that makes you feel better. There’s so much misinformation floating around the Internet. Go for google scholar if you actually want to read the research on it, but be prepared to actually critically assess the papers - were the stats valid? The conclusions appropriate from the data? The sample size appropriate? The right comparison groups? Etc.
[QUOTE=arapaloosa_lady;8750586]
Amputation??? That doesn’t sound like a good idea for a first option when the other cruciate frequently ruptures too.
OP: talk to your vet, do a consult with another vet if that makes you feel better. There’s so much misinformation floating around the Internet. Go for google scholar if you actually want to read the research on it, but be prepared to actually critically assess the papers - were the stats valid? The conclusions appropriate from the data? The sample size appropriate? The right comparison groups? Etc.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
IME, the people who invest the time/money for surgery are also WAY more likely to followup with appropriate rehab.
Lastly, for any vet to make some sort of generalizing derogatory statements about her colleagues is incredibly unprofessional. My job is to recommend what’s best for the ANIMAL; what the owners choose to do with that info is up them. I don’t make assumptions of what owners can/will/want to do. It’s not my job to judge people.
isn’t that what you just did? say clients are more likely to follow through with the rehab if they spend big bucks for the surgery? you said the same thing my vet said, you just said it a different way.
in fact it is even more judgy because you denigrate your clients by saying they do CM only to avoid spending the money.
[QUOTE=RaeHughes;8748340]
As I said , my experience was different.
my large bred lab x had the same angle before and after. His rupture was from a very fast racing turn after a hare. Didn’t help when the other lab ran into him. His was titanium inserts and wire - what you are calling the TPLO . The other was for the same reason. Friends have had labs and other large breeds with the same op and all angles were the same. Vets were all concerned that the fishing line option would be a fail.
one friend had an English Mastiff who had a tear - they completed the titanium inserts and after 12 weeks the leg failed again. All standard care and recovery completed. Leg was removed. Vet said he wouldn’t have opera rated[/QUOTE]
One of my Cairns had TPLO last year on one leg; when he tore the other one just over a year later (just short of two months ago) we opted to treat him as though he was recovering from the surgery – same restrictions and slow return to activity; also I have a home therapeutic ultrasound machine that I use for all our animals when possible, and he got that, too. I am very happy with the conservative approach, although he still hasn’t quite returned to full activity on the second tear, so I don’t have a final outcome on the leg that hasn’t had surgery.
But in looking at options last year for surgery, the local vet would do the “fishing line,” or the veterinary surgeons would do TTA or TPLO. TPLO is definitely reshaping the bones in the joint. Pretty sure it involves no wires and indeed, the whole point is to change the articulation of the bones of the joint (though not hugely). RaeHughes, what you describe really doesn’t sound at all like TPLO, but it’s great your dog has had such a wonderful outcome.
With our Cairn, his regular vets are happy with how stable his joint is for the leg that had surgery, but I feel like I could see a difference in his gait. I felt his response was good and functional, but I didn’t feel it was the “near normal” return to functioning the surgeons predicted – they said it was virtually 100% return to normal, the only issue being that some degree of arthritis was inevitable. But as I said, I could see gait changes, and I abandoned any notion of having agility fun with this guy, even though his temperament would have made him perfect for it.
