Centaurs, I haven’t read the whole thread so forgive me if this has been asked but have you checked in on the energy “you” bring into the riding session? Sometimes with horses who live behind the leg they really need a rider who brings the energy.
Low energy rider with a low energy horse don’t always work well.
Referring back to MapleBreeze’s comment, it sounds like her front end is stuck, so you need to start by unsticking it.
I’d suggest getting a physio to start to find out where she’s holding tension. Then work on some stretching exercises both mounted and unmounted, stationary and in walk in order to improve the suppleness.
Is she locked in the jaw or is she softly chewing the bit? This is another consideration, if she is then consider doing some jaw flexions.
Is the horse bored? Do you incorporate pole work, do you put up low jumps to walk over, do you ever work with another horse in the arena and try some drill work? Do you ever go outside and just hoon around a field until the horse gets the idea that is allowed to go faster?
@KurPlexed I tend to bring too much energy and have to deal with slowing horses down so I don’t think there is an issue of having low energy with this horse.
@Nous Her jaw mobility varies. She does softly chew the bit at times and this does help in terms of loosening up the front a bit but it doesn’t last long. It’s only brief periods of relaxing and chewing and then it’s back to being heavy.
@Willesdon She goes out on many different trails often with many different horses. We’ve also done some low jumps in the arena.
It is beginning to sound like a mechanical problem…
If you find that the upwards transitions are easier when her mouth is softer this would tell me that the tension you are feeling in her jaw is reflecting in the hind quarters. So I would work on softening her first and foremost. You can start using ground work exercises for jaw flexions so she understands what you mean without your weight / legs interfering, then move to ridden at halt, walk, etc. if she tenses and you can’t resoften in the gait she’s in then always transition down into one where you can soften her. Then ask for the upward transition again.
This is of course absent of any physical impediment; back, tack and teeth check should be a given.
This is due to the riders hands. Horses are not just heavy. This is what she has been taught. What you are seeing/feeling is the result of the training the horse has received.
Deep deep down the number one rule has been broken. It is never the horses fault.
If the horse pulls or leans and you give because you think that means soft hands, you have taught the horse to pull or lean.
Soft hands does not mean giving when the horse has not given first. Not giving first is very dangerous territory as it can teach a horse to rear if it is done unsympathetically, insensitive, not empathetically and with a time frame.
Contact for a rider takes a looong time to learn. Contact can not be taught without a knowledgeable person on the ground. It is much easier if the rider is taught on a schoolmaster first and it is much much easier if a horse is taught by a person who understands contact first, because of the fact that it is harder to retrain than it is to train.
It is not impossible for a green rider to teach a green horse. It can be true that green on green means black and blue. It can be done, however it takes much much longer.
I’ll definitely take full responsibility for this horse’s deficiencies, hence why I’m on here trying to figure out what is going on and how I can remedy the situation.
This horse has had very little training which is part of the issue. I also don’t think I or the owner of the horse are good enough riders to be riding said horse but at the moment, this is what is available to me at the location I am at so I’m trying to do the best I can until another horse comes along.
I’ve been on many horses with different shades of pulling/leaning and this is something I don’t really know how to tackle and I’ve had different trainers all tell me different things. Some horses yank and pull, others lean their front weight into the reins, others toss their head. Some trainers say to give, others say pull back, others say kick so I am confused to say the least.
This particular horse doesn’t yank and pull so much, she’s just really heavy on the forehand.
Assuming no physical cause, can she do TOF, TOH, baby lateral work to “unstick” her and get her actually moving, awake and listening rather than just trying to go straight? I’ve found that really helpful at the start of a session.
Then when you are actually moving, get a feeling like you are sitting almost behind her motion pushing her out in front of you, so shoulders and upper body back, head up and looking where you are going, stomach forward like you are pushing against a wall, relaxed butt, no pinching.
If you collapse forward and pinch at all on this kind of horse they just use it as an excuse to plough onto the forehand and give up.
She (and you) may well not have the physical and mental strength yet to do this for long, but short bursts of correct are better for both of you than long stretches of “meh.” (And personally I find it less exhausting to ride positively like this than to have to keep banging away with my legs.)
When the horse does not understand, then the legs mean go, the reins mean turn or stop and the legs and reins are not used at the same time.
You originally said the horse won’t go. You need to release the reins and let the horse go forward. A horse needs the confidence to go forward.
A horse that leans does so as it helps them to not feel the pain from the hands. They either lean on the bit to stop the pain or they do the opposite and lift their head and suck back, to try not to touch the bit.
The only remedy for this rider is to find a great instructor which is not one that says pull back.
Take the pressure off. Allow the horse to go forward. Reward the horse. Say good boy or Good girl. Relax. There is no agenda to be done. Reset the relationship. Work with what the horse does know.
The horse does not speak English, you cannot teach them to do something they do not know what to do, until you learn how to speak horse. You need someone to teach you to interpret for both of you.
I will go back a step from what I posted above. Start with leading. A single click means walk and the horse walks before you do. The word halt and the horse halts before you do. A thumb not pressing on the chest and the word back for asking them to step back.
On the horse lift stomach, take knees off and click and walk forward. Drop your weight, knees on for halt. Reward. Reward, reward.
Teaching them to lunge, teaches them the words trot and canter. You lift stomach up and forward for trot, reward. Use the words they know. You can be lunged on the horse with the words being used. The horses will go forward from the words being used. You later substitute aides instead. No pulling or kicking or whipping is needed. Spurs are not needed. The horse wants to please you. Let them know you are pleased. The relationship will change.
This takes time. It will not happen overnight.
I understand everything you’ve said but this particular horse still doesn’t go if I release the reins. I’ve completely dumped the reins at times while kicking and she still won’t go.
Generally I can tell whether or not a horse will move because of what my hands are doing.
@atr She can do TOF, TOH, leg yields, shoulder ins, etc. but the issue is it takes a lot of work to get her going in the first place.
I’m thinking maybe starting with TOF etc, from a standstill, just to get her feet moving and her body and brain engaged. I don’t know if it will work for sure, but might be worth a try.
I’ve used this with balky horses in the past… the old “you might not want to move forward down this trail, but im darned if you are going to be rewarded by standing still” routine, until they get over themselves and move on out.
Yes, this can work. In fact it worked with a horse I rode who had the defense of backing up as fast as possible. He started backing up (on loose reins no less), I’d get him to do a turn on the forehand. It took many repetitions over a few weeks, but finally he figured it was more fun to go forward. He was a really stubborn elderly horse who had gotten away with a bunch of stuff. It also worked when he was balking.
@Jackie_Cochran you recommended a book on another thread “Core Conditioning for Horses” by Visconte Simon Cocozza, I think it may be useful for the OP, do you concur?
I think someone else did. I have considered getting this book–sometime, but so far in my riding life I have not felt personally that I need to add special exercises for equine core conditioning above my normal training practices–the Forward Seat training system as delineated by Vladimir Littauer in “Common Sense Horsemanship”, and “Schooling Your Horse”. For anything Littauer does not cover I go to “Training Hunters, Jumpers and Hacks” by Harry B. Chamberlin of the US Cavalry. If all else fails I go to “Give Your Horse a Chance” by A. L. d’Endrody. I read other training books for fun, but these are the books that are dog eared, with scuffed covers, underlined, and USED by me.
Those two books by Vladimir Littauer are of unending use for anyone who trains horses in jumping, hunting, and “elementary dressage.” A dressage rider who needed a confidence builder leased my first horse, trained exclusively in the Forward Seat system mostly by me. When she tried him out my horse got loads of compliments for his immediate responsiveness to the aids, his forward impulse, and his willingness to do what his rider asked. He had NEVER been trained dressage but this lady, her BO and her dressage teacher found my horse to be quite suitable for this lady to regain her confidence and improve her riding.
I ride mostly older lesson horses, usually with gaping holes in their basic training. I go back to Littauer’s books for answers and for planning out my remedial training.
I am not a spectacular rider but my riding teacher likes how I retrain these lesson horses who in the end were not really suitable for teaching children as beginning riders. I do tend to make these horses more rideable by other riders.
That is why you go back to teaching leading by going forward with a click, then lunging so they go forward from voice aids, then lunging with a rider. Break it down for the horse and don’t forget to praise, praise, praise.
At the moment the horse has switched off. You have tried kicking and/or whipping and maybe spurring. Voice aids are the kindest aids you can use. You need to switch the horse back on, so the horse is trying their best for you. Not stubbornly staying there waiting to ignore kicking and/or whipping.
In essence a horse is lead and lunged before breaking in.
As others have said you need lessons, lessons and lessons. Lessons in leading, lessons in lunging, lessons being lunged and lessons in riding. You want an instructor who can show you how to make a horse work out their heart for you and not trying to do nothing you ask.
Whenever the horse does something right, tof, whatever make a fuss, praise. Do not do tof all the time, you will end up with a horse who won’t stand still in halt. Halt 5 times at least to each tof.
You say you are doing leg yields, shoulder-ins etc so the horse must understand contact and you are not a beginner, so really your problem at the moment is the horse is not trying for you. You want a horse that is your partner and does what you ask, because they want to do it for you. Not a horse that you must make do everything.
To do this you must change your relationship with this horse.
So go back to square one and build your relationship from there. This includes catching, grooming and tacking. The horse must enjoy being with you when you are on the ground and on their back.
So does your horse enjoy the time you are spending with them at the moment? You are not enjoying being with the horse at the moment.
This is a great reply, thank you Suzie.
This horse has definitely switched off, at least when I get on her, and I doubt she enjoys the time I spend with her and honestly I don’t enjoy riding her.
I agree with you on lessons, particularly lunging and have brought this up with my instructor many times but it falls on deaf ears. I don’t think I will get anywhere with this horse unless there is a change in instruction and unfortunately that is not likely to happen.
I do appreciate the feedback from everyone, however, and will keep all this in mind.
There are two main uses of homework rides, to practice what you learned in the lesson or to train the horse.
This 5 year old mare does not sound to me that she has ever had anything clearly explained to her in a way she truly understands. Perhaps the trainer did not release the aids in time, maybe the trainer was following an outside schedule not allowing those long, slow hours until the horse calmly UNDERSTANDS what the rider is asking for. Since you are not getting satisfactory results riding her I recommend devoting your homework rides to training her from the very beginning of mounted work as if she were a weak three year old who needs to develop MUSCLES and endurance before she can profitably move on to anything else.
She is telling you that you are somehow blocking her movement. At the walk I suspect that for some reason your seatbones are blocking her big back muscles, the ones that give the feel that the horse’s back is “swinging” when they alternate. The muscle thrusts your seatbone up as the hind leg on that side pushes off. Your seatbone also moves forward a little bit while at the same time it moves up.
If I was paying to ride this mare in a homework ride I would start with several months of just walking. Walk with sagging reins at first (loose reins “holding the buckle” swing and often irritate the horse’s mouth) just walk, at her speed at first, concentrating on following every movement of her back muscles LIGHTLY (do not bear down with your seatbone, concentrate on moving your seatbone going UP.)
This is not a quick and easy solution. I have spent months of my homework rides just walking the horse. I concentrate on keeping my seat light by following the movement of the back muscles, I move my hands like I keep contact even though my reins are sagging and I do NOT really have any contact. I keep breathing. All my aids are well timed (much easier at the walk for you) and I release them immediately.
As the mare gets stronger you can add stuff, working on turns–first gradual turns, working at getting three speed of the walk (transitions!), and working gradually on turns in place.
If this mare does not have medical reasons for her actions I can pretty well guarantee you that after several months of these once a week homework rides this mare will look forward to you riding her, she will understand what you are saying to her, she may start to take an interest in doing her work well, and she could even ENJOY you riding her.
When you get to this point everything else is easy so long as you do not block the horse’s movement all the time or hurt the horse.
Start at the beginning of mounted work. Spend time at this. In the long run you will be very pleased with your results.
What is this horse being fed? It might simply be lacking sufficient energy or important minerals and vitamins in its feed.
one of my greenbean youngsters was a stop and go, very slow and unsure in the ring. Once i began hacking him out…just in small bits at a time, across the creek, or halfway up a hill and then back down or over squishy soft ground …and he found his balance with me aboard everything changed in the arena. Even his plain, normal walk is pretty much now forward and enthusiastic… my coach says he overtracks (or whatever it is called when the rear hoove step a bit beyond the footprint of the forehooves)and his sudden, unrequested stops in the ring…almost nonexistent. I wouldn’t take every green horse out in the open, in fact, very few! but for this guy, it was a safe bet. And it worked for him.
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