Drafts (and draft crosses) in eventing?

[jumpingpercheron]

[QUOTE=Bobthehorse;4528087]
But for someone wanting to have a good time at the lower levels or mid levels without as much stress, they sure look like a good time.[/QUOTE]

Yessir. Bobthehorse, well said. You’re absolutely right. I wouldn’t trade my Perch for the world. A farm in Findlay, OH actually offered me $25,000 for my Perch this past summer after seeing some pics and video of her jumping and I politely said absolutely not. She’ll never be for sale. They also INSISTED she MUST have some type of Warmblood in her and just COULD NOT be a full Perch. I made sure to show them her pedigree as well as her PHAOA registration, meaning there’s no other chance she’s anything but 101% Percheron.

[His_Greyness]

@hereafatty;4528123

Would it shock any of you to hear of an eventing trainer with a strong bias against drafts, then?

It wouldn’t surprise me at all that there are eventing trainers that are biased against drafts. Breed prejudice isn’t illegal and is rampant in the horse world. On the other hand if said trainer came anywhere near His Greyness or Baby Belgian I would have them step on his or her foot.

His Greyness was an obviously Percheron Thoroughbred cross from a PMU farm who did jump 4ft 6in on one occasion. Baby Belgian isn’t far enough along in his jumping training to know how high he can go.

As previous posters have pointed out, in the right context a draft or draft cross is an ideal horse. You are never going to win big competitions with one but you can have a lot of fun. I described His Greyness as the adult’s version of a kid’s pony.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@hereafatty;4528123

Would it shock any of you to hear of an eventing trainer with a strong bias against drafts, then?

Nope…and there is nothing really wrong with a trainer having a bias against a breed type. They know what type of horse they prefer. I have no desire to ride or own a draft cross…but understand that others may like them. It just wouldn’t be my choice for an eventing partner for a number of reasons (often they are really not my sort of ride).

I can also see a trainer not wanting one for a student whose goals are a certain level but who is inconsistent in their program and didn’t have the time to put in long slow work to build up fitness. They also are often smarter than their riders…not always the right match for some riders.

A trainer can have a preference for breed type and a preference/bias against a certain breed…that doesn’t make them a bad trainer just one that knows what sort of raw material they like to work with. Although ultimately, you need to be judging the individual horse…not their pedigree.

Personally, I don’t think it is always fair to ask a truly heavier type of horse to run and jump. Even if they have the heart for it…they are not built for it and you could cause them damage asking them to do the job. (I’m talking about recognized levels of eventing…pretty sure just about anything could trot over a little 2’ elementary course…even that beef cow!). So you really have to look at the individual…how they are built and how they carry themselves. NOT all horses should be event horses.

[asterix]

Totally agree, bfne. 100%.

Let me use another example. I have a friend whose gelding jumped in a very unorthodox way. To me, and, more importantly, to her coach, this horse did not look like a good fit to take her preliminary (they were doing novice at the time). Coach has a real bias, and it is a bias, against certain types of horses. Her bias is based on thinking this sort of horse is not safe/athletic enough to fix the inevitable amateur mistakes on its own. Rider felt coach was being unfair, coach just liked the type of horse she (coach) tended to buy, etc.

On paper, this story can go either way. Coach is narrowminded, perhaps wants secretly to sell student horse she finds, etc etc. OR, student cannot see truth about beloved horse, who is a good egg but hangs legs like a stork coming in for a landing. Coach does not want to be there when the ambulance carts student off.

Full drafts, ideal for eventing? No. Specific horse X, for specific rider Y, sights set on the lower level? Sure.

If you are having a real issue with your coach about this, and you have a horse or have a horse in mind, go get the horse evaluated by one or more other reputable coaches. That should help you sort out whether your coach has “blinders” on, or whether she is giving you sound advice about whether you can achieve your goals with the horse in question.

[caffeinated]

I’m not sure I should respond as I haven’t actually evented my horse yet, but I’m planning to start next year.

I have a 3/4 TB 1/4 Perch I got from a PMU farm as a baby. He is very TB-ish in lots of ways - has a great “go” button, and the work ethic of a plow horse. The horse will just keep going as long as you ask him, regardless of fitness. So I would ditto everybody regarding the careful conditioning.

He is physically capable of jumping pretty big, I think, the big challenge has been to teach him he doesn’t need to leap over a crossrail like it’s ten feet high with monsters living under it.

[fatorangehorse]

When you get to half or less draft - It all depends on the horse. They pick up very different elements of each breed. Mine is big, but not that heavy. He is leggy and has a very long stride.

I never had problems with the time - not that i made every time - but was always in the middle or above the average. Truthfully, I felt like it was easier for my horse than others. Once he learned his balance, he could gallop a 20 ft. stride. Of course i’d rate him before the jumps, but he made light work of the galloping. We would compete against some of the smaller pure TB types, and I felt like my horse had to take about 1/3 less strides. On up through intermediate, his rounds on video looked like he was cantering a hunter course. He just covered a lot of ground. It always looked kind of slow. On the less technical courses, I was usually fastest. My bigger issue was shortening is jump stride to ensure he didn’t eat too much ground on the landing side with upright vertical bounce coming etc.

Did LOTS, LOTS of flatwork. Jumped him 1/2 as much as the other event horses I had at my barn. Flat work because it made him more elastic and the jumps better and flatwork because that’s a big body landing on the otherside of a jump. He has a good work ethic, so I did not drill him. I practiced courses with poles or cavaletti. Frankly, it was harder than jumps because a big jump puts them on their hocks. If I could jump around nicely, with even engaged canter @ 2ft, I knew we were ready! I of course got him over height too. In season, I only did a couple of jumps @ 4ft or so rigth before an event. the rest was working the technical aspects at lower heights - even XC.

We had rails here and there, and an occasional stop xc @ the lower levels. By the time he wen intermediate, he was always clean xc. Lots of people I worked with thought he was a silly horse to choose to event. He loved it and they all apologized @ one point or another once we started cooking. . . . including Lucinda Green. ;-D

[wildlifer]

I do have a problem with eventing full drafts or crosses that are built like full drafts. They are HEAVY horses. And I know more than one that is permanently lame due to ringbone before age 10 because owners insisted on jumping them. I do not think it is fair to ask a draft horse to perform a jumping career. CAN they do it? Sure, and many enjoy it. Small children also enjoy leaping off of tall objects. In neither instance do I believe they SHOULD be doing it. You can call it breed predjudice if you want, that’s fine. But I firmly believe that different breed were developed for different tasks and it is not right to ask them to perform tasks that they are so obviously unsuited for. I love draft horses. I love to see them used as driving horses, trial horses, pleasure horses, heck ride 'em in the dressage ring, have a blast with them! But please don’t jump them, ringbone and other foot and joint conditions are so painful, degenerative, and heartbreaking to watch.

As for draft crosses, well, there is SUCH variability there that one cannot make a general statement as they can be just about ANY shape and size imaginable.

[fatorangehorse]

Wildlifer - I know a number of Draft crosses with those same leg issues as well. It’s back to the same old issue. We make it more about us than the horse. There are lots of horses that get pushed and jumped far more than they should. I have learned that the hard way.

That is part of why i do not event my horse any more. I do jump him still on occasion. Not that dressage is necessarily better. Who are we kidding? Our horses learn to find enjoyment in all sorts of jobs, but truthfully wouldn’t they mostly like to be left alone? Excepting regular deliveries of favorite treats of course.

I’m not saying we should stop all together. Just that it is important that we pay attention to what the horses are telling us - in their bodies and attitudes etc. Sensitivity and good judgement is generally a good way to go - and often our own ambitions can cloud those things. And when you make a mistake with consequences to the horse (and we all will continually) just try not to make that particular mistake again. Also, do your best to leanr from the mistakes you see around you.

Back to the topic, if your your draft or cross horse is heavy or unathletic, don’t pretend it isn’t. If that’s not the case, just be careful not to hurt them.

[Badger]

I know a percheron cross that was successful at advanced and long-format three-star. I’ve bred a perch/TB cross who competes with a pro at the intmediate/** level (doesn’t make time). I am competing another homebred perch/TB at the prelim level myself. Here is a picture of him:

http://www.shannonbrinkman.net/horsesDetail.php?id=71744

It takes more to get him fit than a TB, yes, but I got him very fit for his first training (which he won), and then found it very easy to get him fit again. In fact, he had most of 8 months off (due to husband’s injury during hunt season), got literally pulled out of pasture and put to work in August, and was fit enough to get a 5th in his first prelim 8 weeks later in early Oct. He is a great jumper (see photo above). With draft crosses, there is SO much variation that you really have to look at each individual horse in order to evaluate their potential.

Now, as far as a bias against drafts…I remember well a conversation with a now BNT about the local amateurs in my area vs ones in the area she was living in at the time. I asked her why so many of the ammys in her area were making it to prelim and intermediate when it was so rare in my area. She said that the horses were the difference: in my area, we were seeing a lot of draft crosses and quarter horses and hunt horses being brought to the events by the adult ammys. But in the area where she was teaching at the time, there were a lot more riders on OTTBs, which, in her opinion, had an extra degree of scope, heart, quickness to make up for an ammy’s mistakes, took less time to get fit, etc., and were the reason more ammies were making it out of the lower levels there. And I think there is something to that.

It really depends on an individual riders’ goals, but if you randomly pick a dozen draft crosses and a dozen TBs, I’d put my money on the TB group for having more horses that could jump around an intermediate course. But if you take a random dozen riders, you may not find even a single individual in that group that has the desire and drive to do what it takes to get a horse to intermediate or advanced… So for a whole lot of riders out there, there are plenty of fine horses with draft blood that are suitable and enjoyable partners for their goals.

[eventersmom]

We have a 3/4 Tb 1/4 Shire mare that was bred specifically for eventing. She’s eventing BN/N right now, schooling some Training/Prelim questions and doing a respectable job. She is bold and athletic; she can and will jump pretty much anything you put in front of her and we’ve heard “holy crap that horse can jump” on more than one occasion.

BUT…she is harder to keep fit than our full Tb’s and she’s really tough on the flat, mostly due to her sheer size (17hh) and her conformation. We don’t jump her frequently because we worry about joint stress and she simply doesn’t need much drilling over jumps. Dressage, however, is quite hard for her and she would be much happier as a jumper or hunt horse so we are contemplating making that change.

Everyone has an opinion about what breed they feel is appropriate for eventing. It is a bit discouraging to have people talk about draft crosses in a disparaging way both to your face and behind your back and there are trainers who most certainly have a negative opinion of draft crosses. However I don’t feel it’s any different than people who event or jump Arabians or other non-traditional breeds. If you’re competing a horse outside of the norm for a specific discipline, you’re bound to get an interesting reaction, some positive, some negative.

To me it’s more about the horse and the partnership than the breed. A good horse is a good horse. If the partnership works, the pairing meets with your riding goals and the horse is happy then why not a draft cross or whatever breed makes you smile when you ride!

Here are some pics of our girl in action. We love her but she’s not for everyone.
http://s672.photobucket.com/albums/vv88/eventersmom/Draft%20cross/

[wookiee]

I event a Full Percheron. He’s 16.3 and maybe 1500 lbs. Not big at all like that SUPER HORSE Blue above. Yikes!

I also ride first field in my local hunt here in NH and some of the fences are 3’9" (most are around 3’ or less though) and we go about 10-12 miles in a hunt over varied terrain.

There is much more work involved with him than even with my geriatric (19 year old) TB mare. Trot sets and conditioning are paramount, diet must be monitored. You want them trim, but can’t skimp on calories when they are in heavy work. You have to buy custom tack (when I started I could not find a jumping saddle to fit) and just try finding a 7" pelham! :lol:

As for the leg injuries, my horse is very sound knock on wood but I do get him xrayed every year. Front feet and hocks. I want to make sure I can track any degeneration before I cripple him. I am happy to say we are in year three of serious jump training (horse is 8) and no changes to either feet or hocks. But that’s a big expense every year for “peace of mind”.

It just takes more work and time to keep him at 100% which is where he needs to be to be competitive in Area 1 in BN and Novice. My old TB mare can cruise around Novice/Training at 60% (of course, we’d always be last in dressage). Is it worth the extra work??

That’s the million dollar question. I love my horse, but if eventing was what I was going to focus on, I would not likely continue with him. However, I also foxhunt (where he is much more appropriate), backcountry pack, skijoring, a little of this, a little of that. And finding that kind of versatile mind with athleticism is a much more expensive proposition in a more “popular” breed.

In the meantime, we’re having fun at BN/N and I am learning a lot in a safer package. He’s easy on the eyes and careful with his knees and in this day and age, that’s about all you can ask for.

[octavian_jazz]

My horse is a Clydesdale/Thoroughbed cross. We’ve had him since he was a two year old, (knock on wood), he’s never had any lameness issues other than one bad farrier job and sore heels. He’s done two CCIs, a long format and Young Riders. He’s also 19 this year. He’s extremely athletic and can get moving when he needs to. As far as fitness goes, before both CCI*s, he was doing 2X30s for trot sets and 3X7s for gallop sets. He was a bit warm afterwards, but came back quickly. Otherwise, I don’t feel like he takes a lot more work to get fit, but then again, I guess it depends on the individual horse.

There have been a few other threads on this subject, and everytime I post I always mention Bonnie Mosser’s Merloch, who I think is at least 1/4 draft?

[mjhco]

For a draft / tb cross that did WELL in the long format, check the record of The Flying Dutchman and Grant Schneidman.

Not all are going to be that good or that sound. But not all TB’s will do that well. Not all WB’s will do that well.

[wookiee]

[QUOTE=octavian_jazz;4529164]
As far as fitness goes, before both CCI*s, he was doing 2X30s for trot sets and 3X7s for gallop sets. He was a bit warm afterwards, but came back quickly.[/QUOTE]

That’s very interesting data. At our peak this summer/fall, we were doing 3x5s for trots and 3x4s for canters at Novice speed. He did the work and recovered in less than 10 minutes, but was blowing.

At Groton House, on fence 15, the fence judge marked that he looked tired. I would think that doing those kind of conditioning sets 1-2x a week would be more than enough to fit up a horse for BN/N, but it just didn’t seem to be enough to get us around fresh and begging for more. And of course, no one wants to ride a tired horse so I always worry.

I also treated for Lyme this year and lost a month of conditioning due to Typhoon June. Maybe we just had a rough year…

[lmlacross]

Can I resurrect this old thread with a twist? In the process of vetting a Shire cross (1st gen.) who is to be my hunt/sometimes-BN horse. He’s a doll; light in the hand and a decent mover with a good canter stride. He’s not super fit, but completed a starter HT with his owner last month. When I tried him, he’d been off for three weeks. I’m kind of in love with him. He was brought along by a really good Pony Clubber who has given him a great start, and he just seems delightful to be around. I posted here about another horse (OTTB) I’d tired for the same purpose not long ago. One of the most valuable questions another BBer asked me was, “Did you love riding him and wish you didn’t have to get off?” For that horse, not really. For this one? Yes, definitely. I just wanted to ride him down the road and keep on going!

Assuming the PPE goes well, can anyone point me to a good resource for a scratch-to-BN/hunt field conditioning regime for a horse of this type? I’m looking to take my time and get him fit the right way with an eye always toward his long term soundness. Old threads, others’ schedules, whatever you’ve got. I’m a hunter convert, so getting a (big, heavier) horse fit for long canters across open country is new to me. Most of what I see online (articles, etc.) are geared toward training level and above. I’m going to need to get familiar with respiration rates, huh?