If you will count me being smart enough to hire a good trainer who was able to improve my horse’s gaits, then I’ll raise my hand 
My horse’s trot has loads more suspension and amplitude than he did previously, his canter is straighter and has more jump. His walk was always super.
I don’t understand this. Dressage doesn’t come easy to anyone. No, gaits are a product of good riding and nature/genetics. You don’t get a coast along ride on ANYONE.
“feel a lot better than if you buy a flashy horse?” how do you know? you have never done that, the journey is different for all of us.
I know a lot of bad purpose bred good moving warmbloods too.
Gaits are affected by suppleness, which is affected by rider asymmetry, saddle fit, vet issues, and footing conditions.
I strongly believe each horse also comes to the table with other factors affecting the loft of the gaits: psycological makeup that cause them to be “open” horses or “closed” horses- you know what i mean, those who react to stimuli with a positive sensation. Others close in mentally and physically.
I also believe that horses have muscle makeups that differ- just like people- a variation of fast and slow muscle ideas–some feel very springy, others more stretched (I am a MT). In the very lovely horses I work on the gaits may start from the same benchmark but these factors really affect the gaits. Others may close in when you touch the leg on.
Dressage bred warmblood-- is there such a thing? each line is very different! I wish it was so streamlined
Dressage will kill all of us, really. Its hard for most of us. I’m glad you think its easy.
I’m really suprised at your navite’ Manni, I am wondering really about your mindset. You say you ride 4th level. This is a very innocent view.
I’m so confused with your arguments again Manni I don’t know what side of the team you are batting for. Please try to re-state your thoughts a bit more clearly. You seem to again be swapping again and mixing up your ideas.
What does a though horse look like to you? you say you don’t see ANY in wellington? why not?
And how as a rider would you address what you see to be negative? (not just “more leg”)
Describe anatomically what happens and how it feels as a rider in your own words when a horse is through the back.
What IS a good mover anyways? how does tempo issues affect gait quality?
Are good gaits synonomous with a supple back?
Do the neck and back matter in gaits?
How does collection relate to gaits?
Does throughness feel diifferent in each stage?
Do you believe horses have innate differences in temperment that affect gaits?
what factors affect gaits?
Do you think gaits stay the same regardless of conditions (as you seem to suggest)?
Do you really think WBs are a coast and go sort of thing? (ie you have it easier than everyone else?)
Do you think metal states/trust affect gaits? why or why not?
how about the rider? I can say 5 things easily that riders do to shorten gaits. Can you?
I can answer all of these in my own words. How about you give this a try? if you ride 4th level this should be easy.
GO.
As opposed to what?
As opposed to just telling everyone else who responded that they had not, in fact improved their horses gaits, but more likely made them worse. You know, without photos or video or anything else suggesting either to be true.
well you know, no on in FL can ride very well either, apparently So you should on one hand buy an expensive horse because its easier, no wait, it’s not easy. But you know those who buy off breeds will have more satisfaction from the process, right? Right?
Otherwise I am so bloody confused by what manni is talking about, more so than usual, so I can’t respond to random musings with no clear thought. sorry.
[Edit]
Anyways, let’s define “good gaits” shall we? Is this the same as a “good mover”?
Do/can gaits suffer at different times? such as a horse not being strong?
Does a good mover= good back?
Or can a horse be flashy/good mover but locked in the back?
How does a horses’ personaliy make gaits +/-?
Can good gaits be a problem in training? how so?
If a horse isn’t through, since no one is apparently, how do you propose a solution? what are the top 3 reasons horses loose throughness?
Do gaits suffer as a result of weather/rider/saddle or will as Manni proposes, gaits are sustained at all times based on innate talent?
Ready, GO! Thanks for your ideas. I’ll wait to respond.
Please use your own words and examples, not just parrot theroy. And don’t just say “add more leg”. The answers are deeper than that
Fake News!
Okay I’m going to come back to this post and do a little more deconstructing (both because it’s wretchedly cold and I don’t feel inclined to go out tonight, and that some posts here have been thought provoking and have helped clarify my train of thought). Wall of text. Sorry about that!
This is the first claim that I think is worth returning to. Some horses are more physically capable of doing a job. That thought, unpackaged, means that some movements might be more laborious for some horses than others. The passage is not going to be a gait that a young horse demonstrates under saddle just on a lark. It’s developed. So is the piaffe. Some horses have better passages and piaffes than others. Much of this seems to come down to strength and ability to take weight in the hind end. I think this itself is a bit of a nail in the coffin for “dressage horses naturally have the movement.”
Now, a subpoint of this that I alluded to above: some horses are more physically capable than others. That isn’t to say that a horse that’s less physically gifted from a conformational standpoint isn’t capable of the job. They may have to work harder, their peak level of performing a movement may not be as high as another horse’s. That does not mean that they’re incapable of being competitive. Great horses have bad days. Otherwise average horses have fabulous days. And an excellent rider who presents a thoughtful, well ridden test can serve as a pretty good agent of leveling the field.
Each horse is an individual. Each rider is an individual. Some riders seem to excel at taking somewhat average horses and getting staggering performances out of them and/or developing horses along. I believe Ingrid Klimke is an example someone referenced in one of the first posts - she has excellent methodology for bringing young horses along. Isabell Werth is one I’ve mentioned earlier as well. She’s pretty notorious for preferring to work with horses from the very beginning. I don’t see her buying advanced horses/horses already in competition and then transferring them to her string. They come up under her/her riders. These are clearly two extremely capable riders who very adeptly influence their horses in positive ways.
Not every rider will be able to get as much out of a horse. Some riders may not actually be able to improve a horse at all. This comes down to two (related) things: rider effectiveness & horse rideability. Some horses have mechanics that are simply easier to work with for the majority of riders. And then a rider’s ability to actually be effective in the tack. (And not every rider will be effective with every horse.)
To me, this goes back to the rejoinder to claim 1. I’ve seen dressage horses of all different breeds, in all shapes, sizes, and levels of ability. Morgans, arabians, quarter horses, harness horses, standardbreds, thoroughbreds, friesians, paints, drafts, warmbloods of various registries. (I’m still holding out hope for seeing a dressage mule in person.) Do all of these horses have gaits that start at the same place? No. It’d be disingenuous of me to say otherwise. But each horse can be helped to move correctly. Some might have to be encouraged to go in a way that’s not necessarily conformationally effortless for them (if you think of the longer and lower frame of training level, it might be at odds from what comes to mind when we think of the breed shows that showcase arabians or morgans, for example.) That doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
I think that practical expectations help. The starting line isn’t in the same place for every horse (and oftentimes this can be breed related. I’ve found that I struggle more with the thoroughbreds in movements that really require them to sit and take weight behind, compared to the same movement on the Oldenburg with a similar level of training). Is that “fair”? Well, it’s for the rider to decide. There’s more than one way to reach a destination, and I don’t think it’s right for any one person to determine which is the “right” way to get there. I do believe that there is much to learn from each route, and much to enjoy in each! What it really comes down to is the rider. They need to have the appropriate mind-set and a reasonable approach. Sometimes this means compromising on goals or timelines.
Again: My instructor bought an off-track thoroughbred to event. Freak pasture injury meant he couldn’t jump anymore. So he had a late-in-life career switch to dressage. Top judges (some of which have scored international audiences) gave her competitive scores. I have a similar experience, though at lower levels.
It wasn’t all smiles and giggles. Honesty-moment here. But you can’t let that get to you - for example, my trainer didn’t compare her progress to anyone else’s (regardless of what horse they were on). She looked at her progress compared to what they had managed already, and held it against what he seemed capable of doing. They had a very nice competitive career and she never got a chip on her shoulder about the “disadvantages of showing an off breed,” so to speak. I think it’s a good example to emulate.
Random assorted closing thoughts (translated: it’s cold and walking the dog when neither she nor I want to go out is going to be a task!):
This is all predicated on a uniform belief of what defines “good” gaits/movement. And then I suppose we’ve also seen that it also requires an agreement on what influences gaits which also varies depending on who you speak with. What components (if any) contribute to good gaits, and then how do gaits actually influence the components of a test. These are things that there are generations of schools of dressage that are in disagreement on. Even if you try to narrow it down to “classical” schools of dressage, you still have more people at the party than ants on a hill! At the end of the day, the verbiage we use in dressage doesn’t really have one uniform definition - which only contributes to some of the muddied waters in some of the major discussions about the discipline!
Horse gaits can be improved with proper training and riding. Proper training causes muscle development and increased muscle range and strength, and improved balance (etc.), and that leads to improved gaits. Just like a person, an iin-shape and sculpted horse moves better than a couch potato or an incorrectly muscled horse. Also, a smart and/or willing horse will always go farther than one who isn’t because they learn how to carry themselves better in relaxation.
I suggest your friends actually go to a show and talk to actual riders of so-called “off breeds” that are successful at mid to upper levels (I say “off breed” because you can read the entry and find them easily). Have your friend talk about gait improvement as the horse got stronger with the owner, and then have them discuss that it was a “waste of time” on the part of the rider.
IMO, there is no doubt that gaits can be improved with proper training and riding (some horses more drastically than others, depending on their build, brain and soundness, because that changes the horse’s way of moving.
I think a good mover is not the same as “good gaits”, Gaits are a one dementional look at what should be a larger discussion.
What do you mean? Can you expand your thoughts on this? Thanks!
I wish I could find it, a while back in one of the mustang groups I follow on Facebook somebody had posted a progress report on her horse. She had some initial photos and videos from the internet adoption. I don’t recall the details, but it wasn’t a horse I would have looked twice at as somebody interested in English disciplines, and I doubt the cow horse people would have been interested, either. Short, ewe neck, hollow back, heavy, downhill, no spring, no over reach. A real dumpster fire of a mover. I don’t recall the interval, but the photos and videos of the “after”, I would not have guessed it was the same horse without the clearly legible freeze brand. Round, balanced, reaching. Likely to take gold in the Olympics? Probably not. Improved gaits? Definitely yes.
It can indeed be quite demential.
:lol:
For once I get to correct someone in English : dimensional.
(I look up to make sure I understood what I thought you were saying)
Which is BTW still my opinion… (except for the part that they make them worse, which is your personal assumption) It is a lot easier to post somewhere in the internet that somebody improved the gaits of a horse then actually doing it. I know that it is possible, but I believe only very few riders can really do it. So unless somebody is willing to post videos to show it, I don’t believe it.
But this has nothing to do with riding dressage with a horse which has not perfect gaits… Dressage does make a horse more athletic and will improve the way it uses his body. Everything should look smoother and stronger if the training is correct.
I would argue Manni point in that no horse will offer their very best gaits just because. Through good riding you show them how to use their bodies better and to that end, they move better, thus enhancing their gaits. I think that anyone who can do this has improved a horses gaits.
If you watch even the most amazing moving horses in the world causally trot round their gaits are mechanically correct and pleasing. If you chase them round you see exciting gaits with tension. It is the riders job to find the exciting gaits under saddle and remove the negative tension.
I would guess that most people who have ridden to 3rd level competently with instruction should be able to improve gaits.
Im going out on a limb here to say Manni and I disagree on the definition of “improving gaits”. From reading what she has written so far, I think her understanding is someone like Charlotte D getting on and having that horse move like he has never moved before, even at liberty. Watch any of her videos and she can add volume to a horses trot that is a very special gift that she has, and I would agree that few have that skill or talent. Would believe it was one of the reasons Carl gave her the ride…
Everything you just described above DOES improve the gaits.
Maybe that’s what Manni meant. I don’t know. It seems there is a semantics issue going on here. In the situation described above, is the rider improving gaits, or is the rider improving ‘movement’. Or, are they one and the same. If a good rider gets on a shuffling western pleasure horse ridden by a novice and just by a few rides gets it to move better, are its’ gaits improved?
Well if we talk about pure gaits vs. impure gaits then the metamorphosis if it ever occurs has some caveats. Still, dressage can, when done correctly over time, improve some impurities dependent on cause. There are some causes of impure gaits that no matter how good the rider or how well ridden, the gaits aren’t going to become pure and then ‘good’. If taking it in with that meaning/connotation, I can still claim to have improved gaits through the use of conditioning and dressage; but, I will claim defeat when the cause of the impure gait (different horse) turned out to be neurological and there was no cure.
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