DRESSAGE GAITS - Fact or Fallacy?

[Horseman15]

@SendenHorse

Really? How unfortunate and pessimistic.

I am an average rider, but I have seen my horses gaits improve. It has to do with suppleness and elasticity. If the horse isn’t moving better by the end personally I consider that a big problem. It’s been one of my greatest joys to watch my horses get better and more beautiful in expression.

I have to agree with you completely. I haven’t been riding 3 years yet but I’ve seen my own horse’s gaits improve. I ride with average riders that have noticed the difference. We rarely take lessons and I’m the only one that rides him. I do ride him several times a week. If my ammy a$$ can do it I see no reason why most others can’t.

You said: “I don’t think good basic riding is enough…”

Hugh? its all about good basics. FULL STOP. You watched RD, didn’t you? that is exactly how I like to ride.

Tricks are just tools and products of the basics. Movements are used to produce these basics to a higher degree. HI improves throughness/straightness… and a good walk halt will improve the collection/balance.

Back to the OP- I think the horse regresses to the level of the rider, always. So a nice moving horse will suffer and I was quite shocked with one horse that really looked almost lame with a rider that was not balanced. An 8 mover can become a 5 mover if there is not a good match with the rider, or too much tension.

Likewise, a good rider will improve the loft of THAT horse. A 6 horse can never be an 8

I’ve seen this first hand just last weekend. My girlfriend was riding the mare. She’s very much a beginner who is still scared. She was bouncing around and the horse was very tense. I had her close her eyes and relax. As soon as she did the horse loosened up and moved better. Is this the same as the “real dressage”? No. But it shows full well how the rider affects the horse.

[thecolorcoal]

@MysticOakRanch - you wonder why we’re not friends anymore, me and this lady! xD :winkgrin:

[SnicklefritzG]

Granat was described the same way by Christine S. Some even said he looked like a “cart horse” and it was only when he moved that he displayed his remarkable elegance.

@MysticOakRanch

Your friend was not correct - a judge can’t look at a horse’s conformation and make a determination as to how it “can” go, all a judge can look at is what they see in front of them at that moment, how the horse is actually going. The difference between the two forms of dressage (English and Western) is primarily the Western Dressage judges don’t emphasize the “quality of the gaits”, the look more at the directive of the movement, and the quiet submission is more important then anything else. And of course, the other difference is the tack used.

If you looked at Valegro’s conformation, would you ever expect him to move the way he did? Conformation is not relevant to dressage (other then as a partial predictor of long term soundness).

And Western Dressage is not limited to stock breeds - having judged quite a bit of it at area schooling shows, I’ve seen Arabians, Gypsies, Warmbloods, Morgans, as well as the Stock breeds. The discipline begin in the Morgan world, after all - and that is not a stock breed!

[thecolorcoal]

I wish I understood why people, who do not even ride dressage, write anyone who tries off as “unfit” if they don’t have the horse. I think that, even in the dog world, if you trained your… i don’t know, german shepherd to catch birds - sure, they can’t do it like a golden retriever but if that’s the ONLY dog you had without the opportunity to buy a specific breed, why can’t you at least train the german shepherd the 1-2-3’s of bird-dogging? No one’s getting hurt!

I don’t like this all-or-nothing attitude from people. I am not even thinking dressage people as I write this, I have a specific audience in mind. Horses are more than just tools to get the job done. There are so many breeds specializing in different sports, all purpose-bred, from the quarter horse to the dutch warmblood. But why not take your KWPN to a low-level reining class? Why not take your Qh to a hunter show? Why not take your arabian dressage? (i’m looking at you, not-so-speedy dressage!!!).

I’m rambling xD Also I love Valegro, and is it true where I read he was bought for 4,000 and the KwPN rejected him as breeding stock?! I bet they’re CRYING to the bank now!

I have nothing but respect for wb breeders but I also understand they are the lambo’s of the horse world, specifically marketed to the top percent who they know can afford. It’s a business, too.

[CanteringCarrot]

You can ride whatever horse you want. No one is stopping you, essentially. You are stopping yourself once you listen to all of the “voices” out there and let them deter you. It sucks if you have a truly descriminary judge, and unfortunately this can occur in almost any discipline. You really can’t help that if you unknowingly step into the ring with someone that can’t set their asinine bias aside.

There are always critics. They don’t matter. Now, if someone gets genuinely and with actual knowledge offers CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, I’ll lend an ear.

If you like competing your TB, WB, QH, Arab, Morgan, grade horse, then do it. It’s your time, money, and efforts. I generally don’t let others tell me what I can and cannot do with my money, time, and energy. Maybe I make a fool of myself sometimes, but such is life. If I’m having fun and there is no inherent danger or risk to anyone else, then whatever.

[MsM]

Interesting video on “fancy” moving young horses:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QIdbljAQZU

[Wicky]

It would be fun to see a compilation of video footage of different horses at year intervals, showing how flashy and non-flashy horses develop over time.

[Samantha37]

@MysticOakRanch

If you looked at Valegro’s conformation, would you ever expect him to move the way he did? Conformation is not relevant to dressage (other then as a partial predictor of long term soundness).

I’ve known this for a while but am fully understanding it a bit better now. My current OTTB (3rd Level, dream goal would be to do the PSG on him, but he will tell me when he doesn’t want to move up anymore) is built almost perfectly. If you set his neck on a little higher, he would be a superb confo model. He has a slightly long back but it is well balanced by his long neck. This horse is almost impossible to get to open his shoulders past a certain point. Whether it is age at this point, or some old racing injury I am unaware of, getting those shoulders open for a medium/extended trot is a nightmare. I think judges look at the way his shoulder is put on and think: he has way more in there! And I would agree - but it is very hard for me to get him to do. I will keep working on it and hope to make more progress but I know his shoulder won’t ever be as free as it could be due to years racing followed by years of my crappy riding

I’m in the process of buying my second OTTB who is quite green but has some of the freest gaits my GP trainer has ever seen on an OTTB. And this horse seriously looks like he is built of spare parts.

Just goes to show you that confo is not everything.

[Samantha37]

@Wicky

It would be fun to see a compilation of video footage of different horses at year intervals, showing how flashy and non-flashy horses develop over time.

I can show you my OTTB.

Here he is in 2012, way before we starting doing straight dressage. This is when I was eventing and trying dressage shows for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnT1tgEsu70

Here he is in 2014:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK-CKV0d0vY&t=10s

I started straight dressage in fall of 2015.

Here he is during my time being a WS for my trainer (Feb and March 2017, had just finished rehab from an injury so not quite in full shape when we start) - he changes dramatically here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzl23XuzQS8&t=188s

Here he is a couple of weeks ago (due for SI injection, so a bit tight in the lower back)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspmi7GE8g

[Scribbler]

@MsM

Interesting video on “fancy” moving young horses:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QIdbljAQZU

Yes, the vlogger is noting that there is often a trade-off between the big gaits in a horse that moves best on the straight and s horse that can collect.

The video would be more useful if he used examples of horses changing over time and training.

If you put Iberians and quarter horses at one end of the spectrum as able to collect, and saddlebreds and harness horses at the other end as big gaits but less ability to collect, dressage horses need both but there may be conformation reasons it’s hard to get both in the same package.

Also pretty much all foals and many yearlings have natural suspension and airs above the ground that the grow out of.

[CanteringCarrot]

My husband the other day: He (my 5 yr old horse) doesn’t go around like a dumptruck anymore.

So yes, you can improve gaits :lol:

[Scribbler]

And indeed you can diminish gaits if you don’t ride or school correctly.

[Rackonteur]

I just found this thread and am enjoying it (it opened on page 5 so I started reading here). I am glad to be reading it. Some time ago a big-WB-owning eventer friend of mine told me that a QH “just doesn’t have the right conformation to do dressage.” I had a QH at that time.

At the same time, the saddle-seat Saddlebred barn near us was introducing collection for their lesson horses and other dressage-type training.

I’m looking forward to reading more of this thread later this afternoon.

[Scribbler]

@Rackonteur

I just found this thread and am enjoying it (it opened on page 5 so I started reading here). I am glad to be reading it. Some time ago a big-WB-owning eventer friend of mine told me that a QH “just doesn’t have the right conformation to do dressage.” I had a QH at that time.

At the same time, the saddle-seat Saddlebred barn near us was introducing collection for their lesson horses and other dressage-type training.

I’m looking forward to reading more of this thread later this afternoon.

Any horse can do lower level dressage.

I think ASB like Arabs have a range of ability to collect depending on how their hind ends are built. However I don’t think you can get correct movement in stacked shoes.

Quarter horses likewise have a range of gaits within the breed.

The big question isnt so much, can you do lower level dressage on a certain breed? It’s more, how many bonus points do you get for a horse that is demonstrating a big trot?

As other posters have suggested this can be a big factor in scoring at lower levels because there are fewer movements and less training in the score. So even if the test doesn’t require a true extended trot yet, the big gaits get bonus points.

As far as QH in dressage I ,expect that a catty reining type QH could do a lot of the more advanced collected work and lateral work if he wasn’t too downhill to do it correctly. But he might not be able to show enough difference between working medium and extended trot to score well there.

But QH vary so much within the breed that you need to look at the horse in front of you.

[raff]

The accepted wisdom is that you can improve the trot, and make the way of going optimal for the walk and canter. I’m pretty sure you can’t make a horse go better than its conformation allows, but you can definitely get a lot more than the horse offers by choice. I’m a little bit lazy and also have questions on how fair it is to wring the last drop of performance out of a horse too.So considering the horse and how hard it is for him to go from a 6 to an 8 mover is part of it for me too,but it can be done in the trot ime

[atr]

Most horses at amateur levels are limited more by their riders than by their own innate ability.

[Dutchmare433]

@atr

Most horses at amateur levels are limited more by their riders than by their own innate ability.

This!! I’m of the opinion that most amateurs would get a heck of a lot farther on less flashy horses with better temperaments. I know a few people who’ve gotten good (low-mid 70s) scores at 2nd and 3rd level on off breeds.

[thecolorcoal]

A lot of this is kind of going over my head, as I don’t compete yet and am not sure what constitutes as a 6-7-8-etc for each test requirement, but I hope to have the lingo down soon! This board is extremely encouraging, because my only IRL experience with dressage riders have been the stereotypical DQ’s - who do exist mind you - or the eventers just trying to keep their hot TB’s together.

it’s nice to see there’s a variety of experiences, personalities, and types.

[outerbanks77]

@thecolorcoal

I don’t like this all-or-nothing attitude from people.

I have nothing but respect for wb breeders but I also understand they are the lambo’s of the horse world, specifically marketed to the top percent who they know can afford. It’s a business, too.

So the good news is, you don’t have to worry about, or listen to their attitudes! I’ve found a trainer who loves my little appendix mare, and talks about how she will develop and move up through the levels because of her great brain. I don’t expect her to be a grand prix horse (maybe, who knows) but I believe she can do third, maybe fourth, and if we make it there, I’ll only be competing against myself. If we move up on low 60’s, and don’t get any blues against the warmbloods, it really doesn’t matter, and there’s no sense in having a chip on my shoulder about it. Although my GOV mare of the same age is more physically gifted, I suspect that she will progress more slowly because that is how she is mentally. Nothing about her will be any easier to move up the levels as compared to my appendix, though maybe she’ll get tossed extra points at training and first for her suspension and overtracking.

It’s kind of like someone who goes out and races an old Mini Cooper on the weekends wringing their hands about how they’ll never be as fast as a Formula 1 car, to continue with your car analogy. That’s obvious, but seems pretty irrelevant to me. What would an amateur do with a Formula 1 car anyway? Also, there are the All-Breeds awards, so there is an avenue for measuring yourself against others showing your breed, if that matters to you.

[CFFarm]

Funny, I remember when I was a kid (when dinosaurs ruled the earth) thinking how homely most dressage horses were. European, not Baroque. Until under saddle. It was magic. I learned not to judge a horse by conformation alone.