Dressage Judging-In which we opine on current state of affairs

[pluvinel]

I thought I would start a new thread to focus on issues of dressage judging as separate from the “Horse Welfare” thread.

Take my comments with the disclaimer that I admit I am biased. I am a dressage dinosaur who likes training horses but who no longer likes to watch competitive dressage.

The FEI has a Dressage Judging Manual. to give judges guidance.
DRESSAGE JUDGING MANUAL (fei.org)

My point of reference is Wolfgang Niggli’s 2003 book, “Dressage - A guideline for Riders and Judges”

This book is only 20 years old, but his words seem “quaint” in the current state of affairs.

[pluvinel]

@eightpondfarm

@pluvinel

Page 23 THE WALK - (Who overtracks 3 hoofprints in a collected walk???)

if the Athlete cannot collect the Horse and allows him to overtrack two (2) hooves or more the mark has to be diminished by a deduction, if overtracking 3 hooves or more the mark cannot be higher than 5.5 max.

i’m confused. When you collect a horse at the walk are you not asking the hind to come under and engage more? And, if so, wouldn’t that tend to push a horse into overtracking? I have a few horses who overtrack at liberty…i’m just now beginning to put a leg over one of them. Is he going to have a self-canceling walks?

short back/long legs and open angled hip/short croup…this is the basic structural reason why my three horses naturally overtrack. How common is that sort of structure in purposefully-bred dressage horses?

I quoted from the FEI Dressage Judging document to point out verbiage that does not seem to reflect reality.

Here is a 10 minute video of Nuno Oliveira doing a number of exercises at the collected walk. I am either blind or there is no over track in collected walk.

Nuno Oliveira lipizzan

[eightpondfarm]

i didn’t see it either. I did see base-narrow in his hind, (good to know i have one of those). I saw precise measured controlled footfalls. I saw a slight lag in r.hind. and a bit more throw in front l. all-in-all Lovely palate cleanser!!! Thanks for the reminder of what it is all about!!!

[pluvinel]

@mombc24 On the pirouette and judging pirouettes…Niggli (p 101-102) Judging the Half Pirouette

The half-pirouette is introduced at the Prix St. George level of competition. The appearance of a horse performing a half or full pirouette correctly in canter is showin in Figure 61. A horse cantering in a very short but clear three-beat canter, obviously taking the weight on his hindquarters, showing enough strides in the turn to maintaining a steady head position deserves a high mark…The mistakes that can occur during the canter half-pirouette and their effct upon the judge’s marks are as follows:

• A clear deviation from the straight line can never be more than ‘satisfactory.’ (6)
• If the horse makes a small half-circle not taking the weight on the hindquarters, the mark cannot be more than ‘sufficient’ (5)
• If there are incorrect footfalls, for example jumping with both hind feet together, the mark can never be more than ‘sufficient’ (5). However, if the horse changes the leading leg, the mark must be ‘insufficient’ (4) or lower.
• Falling out with the hind legs is always ‘insufficient’ (4) to ‘bad.’ (2)
• A horse bringing his head up cannot be more than ‘satisfactory’ (6). However, a horse coming clearly above the bit must be considered to be 'insufficient" (4) or lower.

[Aussie_2020]

I fell in love with dressage in 1984 (I went to watch the Olympics for the eventing but came away enjoying the dressage more). I fell out of love with dressage in 1995 after seeing what I considered abusive riding at the World Cup.

[mombc24]

From what I understand they added overtrack being allowed in collected walk because of the warmbloods being bred for giant movement physically have to. It’s not what they necessarily want to see but they don’t punish a large mover for it

[pluvinel]

@mombc24

From what I understand they added overtrack being allowed in collected walk because of the warmbloods being bred for giant movement physically have to. It’s not what they necessarily want to see but they don’t punish a large mover for it

I think you have started to scratch the surface of how dressage veered away from the classic elegance of the past to the current exhibition of brute force over the horse.

After WWII, as German breeders “repurposed” the warmbloods for use in dressage competition, riders had to find ways to fit the round peg into the square hole. The round peg being the large warmblood, a horse that was was bred as an all-purpose horse, never intended for manege riding, into the square hole of classical dressage, an activity ridden in a small arena that emphasized collection.

[pluvinel]

@Aussie_2020

I fell in love with dressage in 1984 (I went to watch the Olympics for the eventing but came away enjoying the dressage more). I fell out of love with dressage in 1995 after seeing what I considered abusive riding at the World Cup.

You have the timing about right…

Riding curled up horses started in the late 1980’s-1990’s with Isabel Werth with Gigolo and Nicole Uphoff with Rembrant…and developed by Uwe Schulten-Baumer.

The riding was christened “rollkur” as a way to dominate these large horses when people fell in love with the highly suspended WB trot. It was followed in the 2000’s by Anky van Grunsven and Sjef Janssen. If those winning riders were riding curled up horses, then it must be “a good thing”…

[Aussie_2020]

AVG won in 1995. The warm up was awful to watch, Bonfires head was held with nose to chest practically the whole time. We were there to see Kathleen Raines so we saw quite a few of the other riders. There were at least six riders in warm up that rode leaning back with their horses nose on its chest. So much force in the bridle

[Mondo]

@Aussie_2020

We were there to see Kathleen Raine so we saw quite a few of the other riders.

I
(Fixed the spelling of her last name for you.) I will wager that Kathleen did no such thing with her horses. I was taking lessons from her back then and we were NEVER taught to ride like that.

[pluvinel]

@Mondo

I
(Fixed the spelling of her last name for you.) I will wager that Kathleen did no such thing with her horses. I was taking lessons from her back then and we were NEVER taught to ride like that

Words can be misinterpreted…I don’t think @Aussie_2020 was implying that KR was riding forcefully. What I took away was, just that they were there to see KR and saw “other” riders in the warmup with more distasteful riding approaches…

At least that is how I interpreted her comment…but will let Aussie speak for herself.

[Aussie_2020]

What the heck is up with you? You’re making it sound as though I am accusing KR of riding that way. I am not. We were there to cheer her on and that is why we were able to “see behind the curtain” so to speak.
And thanks for fixing her name and thanks for broadcasting about your accomplishment in doing so.

[Aussie_2020]

Thank you, that is exactly what I meant. The only reason a rider was mentioned is because not everyone could get to the warm up area.

[DMK]

Whoa… Slow down and READ, because that was neither stated nor implied in that paragraph!

[Mondo]

@Aussie_2020

What the heck is up with you? You’re making it sound as though I am accusing KR of riding that way. I am not. We were there to cheer her on and that is why we were able to “see behind the curtain” so to speak.
And thanks for fixing her name and thanks for broadcasting about your accomplishment in doing so.

I wasn’t attacking you. I understood perfectly what you were saying. I said I would bet that she wasn’t one of the riders you were referencing. I wasn’t implying that you accused her of anything.

[Mondo]

@DMK

Slow down and READ, because that was neither stated nor implied in that paragraph!

Whoa slow down and read - because I didn’t imply any such thing. Jeez you guys calm the heck down. We are all in agreement here - why the attacks and thin skin?

[DMK]

No thin skin, but when multiple people read your post and think WTaF, chances are you might be the one who didn’t get it right, so to speak!

But you are right, it wasn’t a reading issue, but perhaps a “coulda made my point more artfully” issue

[pluvinel]

Here is Mistral du Coussoul & Alizée Froment at the Grand Prix Freestyle CDIO Hickstead in 2013. where she got at 70,2%

Freestyle CDIO Hickstead 2013 - Alizée & Mistral

[Mondo]

@DMK

But you are right, it wasn’t a reading issue, but perhaps a “coulda made my point more artfully” issue

100%

[Mondo]

@Mondo

I will wager that Kathleen did no such thing with her horses. I was taking lessons from her back then and we were NEVER taught to ride like that

Quoting myself here to ask where I suggested, implied, or otherwise accused Aussie_2020 of accusing KR of riding that way? She went to see that rider. She saw other riders using rollkur. She didn’t say KR was, nor did I infer same. Not sure where all the confusion stems from, but as I write for a living, I take the comments to heart.