Dressage - Then & Now

[Mondo]

“But I don’t see people “looking” for that riding experience these days.”

I sure do. It’s a desire I work hard to instill in my students. Some of them don’t care to show or ever progress beyond 1st - 2nd level. They just enjoy learning about their horse and how the biomechanics, both human and equine, figure in. But my competitors - yes, they all are striving for that perfect self-carriage, lightness, totally-in-synch-with-horse moment. And sometimes they find it.

The folks with whom I am not acquainted that I see at shows, who don’t seem to have that same passion and desire? Shrug… I don’t pay them any attention. Maybe you would feel better if you didn’t either?

[pluvinel]

@Windermere

I feel like you’re shifting the goal posts here - the idea of aiming for a sensitive, forward, responsive horse was not something that came across as one of your main points in the OP. And I’m not sure what the objective is - to criticize those who aren’t as “pure” in their interest in dressage?

If you think that every rider would enjoy riding a sensitive, responsive, horse - well, you’re mistaken. Every rider has different goals, and some may not feel confident to handle a sensitive horse, who might interpret a rider’s mistake as a cue, or be too in-tune with a rider’s headspace and pick up on anxiety, nervousness, etc. Not every rider needs a sensitive and forward-thinking horse. What they do need (speaking for adult amateurs here) is a horse that they can feel safe and confident on. And perhaps in time, as they progress their riding skills, that sensitive and forward horse will become more appealing.

I guess this is why the CE forum closed…a simple discussion about dressage then and now goes south in ad hominem.

Back when Crossley wrote the book that started this thread (1978) most people were still riding TB’s. I would offer that the light, sensitive ride was a function of the horses that people were riding.

And that the introduction of the WB has changed things.

[CFFarm]

Haven’t read all the answers posted here but just want to add that isn’t that what training shows are for. If a rider does well (score at least in high 60’s) at 1st there (and take the judges comments to heart) they might be ready for training at a recognized show.

[BigMama1]

@phoenixrises

So what? Seriously. Why do you care if someone who’s 45 just got into horses after 20 years of a family and careerr and is thrilled with the fact that they managed the 20m circle! I mean seriously why the heck do you care. Because those 45 people in that class pay for you to have your 4th level or PSG.

This really offends me. I train my own horse and we work at it slowly and railbirds who look down on me, well shame on you.

This x 1000

The OP seems to be conflating two different things: a “system” and rate of progress which may be appropriate for professionsals and upper-level bound horses, and the rate at which amateurs who ride for fun are able to progress. Apples and oranges.

Why sneer and look down on amateurs who may only have time to take lessons once or twice a week? Who may take several years to develop the skills required to move from First to Second? Who cares how quickly anybody else progresses up the levels, as long as they are enjoying the ride?

And let’s be crystal clear - without these weekend warrior ammies who need regular coaching, training programs, full care board and help finding and purchasing their horses, many professionals would be unable to make a living.

I don’t think learning more about the physical development of the horse and adjusting expectations and test requirements over the years is “dumbing down” the sport, particularly if your concern is the long term health of your horse. Every single judge I’ve scribed for has said they like the option of rising trot, both for the benefit of riders still learning (entirely appropriate as First is still a really basic level) and for younger / greener horses. And they’ve also been clear that you don’t get “bonus points” for sitting just because it’s more difficult. They want to see the horses go the best they can and in most cases, they are looser, more rhythmic and more balanced in rising trot.

The “system” described in the OP mirrors quite closely the FEI Young Horse tests - ask yourself why Carl Hester said in one of his recent clinics he doesn’t look for horses who are winning those tests at those ages, because they are rarely the horses who make it successfully to Grand Prix.

[BigMama1]

@pluvinel

No one is “looking down at you.”

The premise of the OP is that instead of thinking Training or First Level are some big achievement, the point of the OP was to point out that those levels are only the beginning and Third Level is a realistic goal for everyone and every horse.

And not to settle for less…or put up with trainers that say you can’t do it.

Just because Training and First are beginner levels, doesn’t mean that succeeding in them isn’t a big achievement to the rider who worked hard to get there. You are entirely minimizing those achievements, whether you mean to or not. And just because a rider feels like conquering TL or First is a big achievement, doesn’t mean they have no goals to progress higher - why do you make that assumption?

This whole post is weird and I wonder if it’s targeted at a particular trainer who isn’t moving students fast enough up the levels for the OPs liking? Or a particular rider who is quite content to do well at First?

When I started riding again at 40, after a 20 year break, just trotting all the way around the arena was a huge achievement. Topping 70% in an Intro test at a show was like an Olympic medal to me. Being able to keep the canter going through the 20m circle and down the long side in our first Training test was a victory in itself. Now we are showing First Level and still struggling with the self carriage and hind end strength needed for more uphill balance and better lengthens. Though we school in sitting trot a fair bit at home, I post at shows (except for the leg yields) because my horse goes better that way.

What about any of that is so offensive to someone else? I do plan to continue moving up the levels but have realistic timelines in mind, given my limited ability, finances and time. When I first started with this trainer Intold her my goal was to compete at Third Level by the time I was 50. That gave her a window of 7 years to take an out of shape rusty rider and a 5yo TL horse to that level. She said then (and still says now) that we can do it, and I believe her. Will it be any less of an achievement because we didn’t do it in 24 months? I don’t think so.

[BigMama1]

@pluvinel

The OP implied nothing about competing priorities, family, time, etc. The premise of the OP is that people seem willing to settle for a goal of Training or First Level.

Of course one has to travel thru those levels on the way to 3rd and 4th…but the point of the OP is that people consider Trg and 1st Level as a “destination”…and don’t consider them just waypoints to 3rd and 4th…and that 3r/4th capabilities are what a well-schooled horse would have been expected to know…back when.

If you look at the George Morris Young Rider Horsemanship Clinics those horse are doing 3rd/4th work…why not dressage folk?

When I have mentioned about playing with canter half-pass, pirouettes, canter departs from pirouettes, and even playing with piaffe as gymnastic way to develop engagement in the young horse, people look at me quite like I’ve landed from Mars.

My beef is mainly with trainers that seem to keep their students at these very elementary levels without opening the door to their students to show them movements that lead to the progression to upper levels.

Which trainers exactly? Is that really a widespread issue in the industry? Have you witnessed these lessons where they refuse to teach capable students any higher level movements or encourage them to move up? Or perhaps have these trainers already had many discussions with their students and agreed that First is a suitable goal at that moment in time? Again, I’m sensing your issue is personal, rather than general.

If you look at Robert Dover’s horsemastership clinics (similar to the GM you mentioned) you’ll see all the participants working on a path towards the upper levels. Plenty of “dressage folk” are,
and if the ones who aren’t are happy, then who cares? Do you have the same issue with people who are happy to show 3ft hunters their whole life and never jump higher?

[Smthn_Like_Olivia]

I am one of those who started dressage at 39 on a basically green 19yr old horse. 20m circles were the hardest thing I ever had to do on this unbalanced old mare. Thanks to those that chimed in to support us low-level slobs. I was starting to feel pretty silly and down about my 1st level goals for next year.

[Manni01]

I wanted to ad something to the thread. Even in Germany (where all these amazing trainers and riders are), there are a lot of people who never make it above 2nd level. So there is really nothing bad about it. There is one thing though… I think even if you stay in those levels I think the riders should not forget that they are the basic levels for upper level dressage and really you should always try to ride your horse like it will do upper level dressage in the future. Because the difference is only in the degree of collection and the number and difficulty of movements. Everything else should be there as well…

[workin_onit]

So I was just talking about the young horse tests with my instructor. How many of the young horses that did well in those tests are actually scoring well at FEI. It is important to allow the horse to develop mentally and physically, both take time and differ by individuals.

[alicen]

@pluvinel

I offer to the gentle reader why those of use “of a certain age” pine for the “old days.” We grew up learning to ride when the standards were a little bit higher than the expectations of most trainers today.

This rider “of a certain age” opines that while high standards may be delineated in theory, in actuality they are not always met - old days or present.

[MysticOakRanch]

@pluvinel

I offer to the gentle reader why those of use “of a certain age” pine for the “old days.” We grew up learning to ride when the standards were a little bit higher than the expectations of most trainers today.

I am guessing we are not that far apart in age. And I sure don’t pine for the “old days”. I don’t think things have changed all that much except we KNOW more. There have always been those who climbed the training/competition ladder, and those who were happy to dabble, and those who didn’t compete at all.

If you go back 40 or 50 years, there just weren’t that many people in the US who rode dressage - at all. If you could kind of get your horse on the bit, you were a rarity. Most people didn’t really know what dressage was, and the few that did participate in it were the elite riders who had Olympic hopes.

Even 30 years ago, the quality of riding was so much - not there - but the popularity of the sport was on the rise. And once a sport becomes popular, you will have a lot of dabblers - and that is what SUPPORTS the sport - and ultimately makes it better. The serious riders and trainers now have clients. The sponsors are willing to spend money because there are customers. That is any competition discipline, and has always been that way.

I grew up dabbling in jumpers - and mostly just riding and playing. There were a lot of people in that category, and very few had high riding expectations, or even planned on showing beyond MAYBE a schooling show. That was the “good ol days” - and I just didn’t see those higher expectations. When I started in dressage (early 90s), I quickly found one of those trainers who had been involved from the early days, and had trained with some of those early California Olympians. And most of her clients didn’t have the “drive” or the ability to move up either. And NONE of us had access to a schoolmaster. And even back then, there were good trainers and not-so-good. There have always been good trainers and not-so-good. Even in the good ol’ days. So I guess I disagree, I don’t look back at the good ol’ days and think it was so much better.

Economic reality and time restraints and physical reality - the majority of riders are adult re-riders who have to work for a living and can’t be the serious rider you want everyone to be. I wonder how many people here have shown 3rd level or higher AND meet these criteria (a) work full time, (b) have a strict budget, © can’t afford a schoolmaster or a fancy horse, (d) can’t afford full training. That is MOST PEOPLE! Higher standards? I think it is pretty amazing that people can juggle all that and still have any time to ride, even if it is “just” First level…

[Samantha37]

@pluvinel

The premise of the OP is that instead of thinking Training or First Level are some big achievement, the point of the OP was to point out that those levels are only the beginning and Third Level is a realistic goal for everyone and every horse.

I am doing 3rd level for the first time with my OTTB (we are learning together as we go up the levels) and I really disagree with the comment that 3rd Level is a realistic goal for everyone and every horse. Unless you have the ability to ride a confirmed 3rd+ level horse that has already been taught the changes - that kind of “fun” isn’t for everyone. Again, as someone doing this for the first time and making their own horse as we go, I think getting to 3rd Level isn’t necessarily a realistic goal for EVERYONE.

As far as sitting at First goes, I like the option being there for the young horses who need the freedom in their backs. I think if your goal is to move up the levels then you should start sitting at First, but if you are happy where you are in your dressage journey at First and have no ambition of going 2nd or 3rd then why not post the trot if it makes you and your horse more comfortable?

Just my opinion FWIW

[quietann]

@Scribbler

Well, 40 years ago around here if you didn’t jump or do barrels or pole bending, and had a niceish horse you wanted to get off the property a few times a year, you went to a flat hack class English or Western. You went walk trot canter reverse and maybe some changes within gaits depending on the class. Dressage did not exist as a local competitive sport. Obviously people were doing dressage at the Olympics, but they weren’t doing it locally.

Now the flat class really only exists as part of the breed shows, or as very low level schooling shows. The population of riders who would have gone to flat classes, now goes to Training or First Level dressage tests (or walk/trot dressage). I believe it’s considered safer since you don’t have to ride in a group with other people.

That would have been me (and I might still be pursuing it if my horse was more sound.) Modulo, of course, having a horse that kicks at horses coming up her butt, necessitating a lot of strategic riding. We rode classes like this at the Vermont Morgan Heritage Festival, and did quite well (won the Jack Benny class!) but the classes were small and the arena large. WAY more fun than dressage

[netg]

@Manni01

I wanted to ad something to the thread. Even in Germany (where all these amazing trainers and riders are), there are a lot of people who never make it above 2nd level. So there is really nothing bad about it. There is one thing though… I think even if you stay in those levels I think the riders should not forget that they are the basic levels for upper level dressage and really you should always try to ride your horse like it will do upper level dressage in the future. Because the difference is only in the degree of collection and the number and difficulty of movements. Everything else should be there as well…

I agree with this, as far as teaching should be “ride this horse as if it were a future Grand Prix horse” even if a rider never cares to get there. It’s how you get the horse to physically develop correctly, be more sound, etc. You’re less likely to rush or fake things if you do that, and you may actually take longer to move up the levels initially, but you’re more likely to wake up one day and realize you’re well beyond where you intended to get.

I have one who I will likely never show, and we haven’t worked on changes because I don’t want to deal with the acrobatics given his other acrobatics - but consistency in work has developed him to really have uphill and correct balance and power.

@alicen

This rider “of a certain age” opines that while high standards may be delineated in theory, in actuality they are not always met - old days or present.

I believe a trainer should always have high standards… but also the ideal trainer has infinite patience and understanding that sometimes there are fear issues (and anyone who has fear issues and pushes on - you have my respect, because that is so much harder than just lack of coordination and other struggles I have), or just lack of ability to do what we want with our bodies, and the trainer will come up with as many ideas, exercises, explanations, etc., as needed to help the rider… and will continue to give reminders as well.

[Scribbler]

@CFFarm

Haven’t read all the answers posted here but just want to add that isn’t that what training shows are for. If a rider does well (score at least in high 60’s) at 1st there (and take the judges comments to heart) they might be ready for training at a recognized show.

Not really. If the judge is at all competent, the score between a “schooling show” and a recognized show shouldn’t be any different. Often they are the same judge anyhow, around here.

[walktrot]

@netg

I believe a trainer should always have high standards… but also the ideal trainer has infinite patience and understanding that sometimes there are fear issues (and anyone who has fear issues and pushes on - you have my respect, because that is so much harder than just lack of coordination and other struggles I have), or just lack of ability to do what we want with our bodies, and the trainer will come up with as many ideas, exercises, explanations, etc., as needed to help the rider… and will continue to give reminders as well.

Netg, you are right on the money. The best trainers have a combination of high standards, respect for the abilities of horse and rider, patience to help them get to their highest level of achievement, and creativity to find the appropriate route for the horse and rider standing in front of them.