Drop in water at Novice?

[kcmel]

Even though the drop pictured is very small, since it isn’t expected on course at novice you may not have schooled this question. And an experienced rider would know to school the water first, but if I was walking the course without my trainer I admit it may not occur to me (although now it will!), or I might get confused and cross my tracks.

I was surprised I could not get my experienced novice horse to jump down a bank into water when schooling the other week (he is very nonchalant about things like banks, ditches, and water) . And this was water he had been in about 100 times before. We have done smaller banks into water before but he wasn’t having any parts of this one. I finally had to get a lead from my trainer who was riding my 6 YO. (I hope my horse was suitably embarrassed :lol:).

[beowulf]

@bornfreenowexpensive

Well the small drop at novice that I first saw was over 6 years ago. So this isn’t new. I think it depends on the event…and while I do think a tiny drop is a lot to ask, I didn’t find it that outrageous.

Per the rule book it is illegal, so I think outrageous is a fair term for it.

Are you thinking of just drops? Or water-drops/drops into water?

[BEARCAT]

Interesting to hear all the different opinions.
No, things did not work out so well for us, as well as for several other competitors.
My horse is normally brave and non-looky, but I knew he might have an issue with this as we had schooled a drop in water at a clinic a few weeks earlier and it had taken a lot of convincing for him to finally do it. He does not have an issue with water per se, and I have even gone swimming with him.
When I spoke to the TD before the start of the event, she told me they had had a long discussion about it, and showed me a page in the rule book where it mentioned drops in water at Novice. Unfortunately I did not note the page number but it was a section that talked about what can be expected when moving up to Novice. Top paragraph of a right facing page if that helps. Different from pages that have been linked on here.
She did mention I could school the water first to get my horse’s feet wet, then come around and do the bank.
Well we did. No problem going in the water, but major refusals when we presented to the bank. My little horse was genuinely scared but trying his heart out. He finally took a giant sideways leap in the water and we parted ways. We are both a bit banged up but okay.

I am not sure where to go from there, as this is not something I am able to school with him.
This was only my 3rd recognized show ever, and I will just stick to schooling shows from now on.

5 riders in the division did make it without jump penalties (out of 13)

[Blugal]

I am sorry to hear that. This jump should not have been on the course, and after concerns were presented to the TD, it should have been removed or made optional. Course creep is really unfair for competitors. They should be able to rely on the rulebook and school accordingly to be prepared for what they will be tested on. 5 out of 13 clear at this question shows how inappropriate this was.

[trubandloki]

@BEARCAT

He finally took a giant sideways leap in the water and we parted ways. We are both a bit banged up but okay.

Hoping you both feel better quickly.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@beowulf

Per the rule book it is illegal, so I think outrageous is a fair term for it.

Are you thinking of just drops? Or water-drops/drops into water?

Drops into water like what the OP pictured. Well under 2’, and just a small step in. That was similar to the one I saw 6 years ago. And that is a lot nicer of water than several novice waters that I’ve seen this year. With maximum houses just a stride or two before the the water…or water jumps so full of jumps that it is hard for you to show your novice horse a clean line through (and that you are not expecting them to jump that prelim house). And I didn’t think it was technically against the rules…but it isn’t something you typically see but depending on the course, time of year etc. you could.

I had always thought that you could face a small drop like that into water at Novice and would rather have that then some of the other things that I’ve seen. And at Training…it is common to have an even more significant drop and/or combination going into water. I used to think water to water jumps were not permitted at Training level…but was shown were it is not against the rules and now see it on several courses.

But OP sorry it didn’t go well for you and your horse. I would school small jumps into water (with SJ). It sometimes just takes some time to get them used to it. And at least around here I would say drops into water are not common at novice …my point was it is not unheard of. And if they are on course, what you posted it similar to what I’ve seen. To me, it is only outrageous to me if that was on a BN course. That drop itself is well within the specs for BN but water added is over the top.

OP you should do a event evaluation though and let them know what you thought. Organizers do read those evaluations.

[Beam_Me_Up]

I might be confused but I thought that years ago there was some wording in the rule book about how novice water could have the entry or exit revetted but not much (18" maybe) which technically allowed for a small step in/out. Then training actually allowed for a drop. I don’t see that right now on a quick check though so perhaps that’s a thing of the past.

IME some horses do find a little step in (vs just entering flat) to be pretty scary at first so I understand not wanting to encounter that initially on course.

[ndirish07]

I can totally related to the OP. As someone who just moved up to novice this year I would have an issue with that. I’m not on an experienced event horse and I’m not an experienced rider but we get around just fine. As an attorney, I love rules and I’ve made a point of knowing what’s permitted and not permitted at my respective level. Knowing what’s allowed and what isn’t has made me feel better about moving up because I know what to expect. As others have pointed out in the rules, I think it’s pretty clear that’s not allowed at novice. It’s not about whether you think it’s a small drop, or “you’re going to see bigger at training”, it’s about what the rules permit and what they do not, and how those rules form the basis for your expectations and training/show level decisions.

Have I schooled drops into the water even though I’m going novice? Yes, because I have access to it. But that doesn’t mean it’s permitted at the level (regardless of the size) and I should be expected to jump it in competition. If this would have been an option then great for those who wanted it, great. Actually, I just had exactly that at a mini-trial where it was an option. I took it because I know I can do it because I’ve practiced it but you shouldn’t be required to do it.

I’m sorry OP-- that really sucks. As someone else suggested maybe put a stadium jump at the water’s edge and start there-- work up from a tiny xrail. You’ll have it in no time!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I’m also an attorney…and I cannot find where in the rules it says a small entrance into the water like the OP posted is not allowed. I do not believe the rules clearly prohibit this…as this is more just revetting rather than a true bank drop (although I’m sure my horse would consider it a drop…and the OP’s horse clearly did as well). (FYI–when you read the rule dimmentions, Novice can have drops up to 3’11. That is stinking huge.)

Do I think it would have been far better as an option…absolutely. So OP…write an evaluation on the event and hopefully it will be changed for next year.

Beam me up… I think that the language you are thinking about is in the rules for BN, not novice (rule 140)

[Hilary]

Seconding sending in the event evaluation. They do matter. They are sent to the organizer and the area chair and can be forwarded to others as need be. I’m sorry you had this experience.

I once competed where there was a log with a dry-land landing and then you went into the water a stride a awy. The guys in charge of filling the water jump were not briefed on the depth limits and filled the thing right to the top! Not only was it too deep for the upper level courses but it brought the shoreline, so to speak, right up to the edge of the log, making it a landing into water. The officials and organizer immediately went to work getting it drained it so that the water was low enough.

[ndirish07]

I will stand corrected. I called the USEA and was told a drop into the water is technically allowed at Novice and to check Appendix 1 as enacted 12/31/16, and that the Course Design Manual has not caught up with the new rules.

[TakeAChanceinVA]

This looks like the water at Round Top in Area 9? If so, that drop has been on the novice course for YEARS. I remember riding it in 04/05 somewhere around there.

[skip99]

@ndirish07

I will stand corrected. I called the USEA and was told a drop into the water is technically allowed at Novice and to check Appendix 1 as enacted 12/31/16, and that the Course Design Manual has not caught up with the new rules.

That paragraph in the appendix though says:

Novice—The Novice Level is a continuing introduction to Horse Trials. It is designed for competitors and horses
with some experience at lower levels or for experienced riders and horses new to the sport. The dressage will not
differ greatly from Beginner Novice. The cross-country should invite bold, forward movement involving galloping in
balance and jumping out of stride. Combinations may include: obstacles on a two stride line, and an obstacle after
a ditch at no less than two strides. Steps in combination may include: a step up followed by a step down at two
strides, two steps up at two strides, or an obstacle after a step up at two strides. Waters may incorporate a simple
jump out of water. The obstacles will be more substantial and may include a drop, a double, and a simple obstacle
out of water. At such obstacles, the exit shall not be revetted. Individual obstacles may include: a simple log trakeher,
or a double brush.The jumping course should be inviting and straightforward, preferably with lines of six strides
or more and shall include only one or two doubles of two strides. Each combination may include only one oxer.
BOD 11/7/16 Effective 12/1/16

There is no mention of a drop or jump into the water?

[kcmel]

@skip99

That paragraph in the appendix though says:

Waters may incorporate a simple
jump out of water. The obstacles will be more substantial and may include a drop, a double, and a simple obstacle
out of water. At such obstacles, the exit shall not be revetted. Individual obstacles may include: a simple log trakeher,
or a double brush.The jumping course should be inviting and straightforward, preferably with lines of six strides
or more and shall include only one or two doubles of two strides. Each combination may include only one oxer.
BOD 11/7/16 Effective 12/1/16

There is no mention of a drop or jump into the water?

I assume the drop is referring to a drop into water?

[retreadeventer]

The “drop” is onto DRY LAND. It does not refer to water in my training and experience. The Cross Country Guidelines were updated Feb. 2017 and thus are actually NEWER than the 12/1/16 shown above - the office is not correct in informing someone the guidelines weren’t up to the rules - they are actually newer as of today.
I have NEVER heard any CD ever encourage Novice horses to drop into water. Run thru, jump something on the way out, but not a drop in.
The problem is, in Area II, as Bornfree is aware, we have numerous ways to school and lots of chances. We aren’t in an area with ONE event within 8 hours, and one or two events a YEAR. And dryland everywhere. No XC schooling that is nearer than 4 hours … etc. I’ve evented on the west coast and I know the dilemma.
To have a rider protest this, know it is wrong, have to try to get thru it on their course which was not changed, then to have all the problems that the jump caused - this is a FAIL all the way. By officials, the designer, the organizer and even the USEA for giving out the wrong information. I find this very very concerning. We can’t afford to have even one kid walk away from eventing, saying, “That sucked.”

[beowulf]

Flip open a rulebook. There IS wording in there that says no drop in water at Novice. I know for a fact my older rulebook (it’s from when I actively competed) has no drops in Novice. I recall distinctly in Pony Club we had to memorize each Eventing level and recite with clarity which fences were appropriate at which level: drops into water were not appropriate until Training.

Apparently, this change is recent.

Another gross level creep. That it’s been the norm for years at XYZ event is not an acceptable excuse.

IMHO no reason to have a drop on a Novice course into water. Novice is still an introductory level. I think this is unacceptable and TBH I am disappointed that this rule was amended in. I was not even aware it was on the table.

A double?! In water?

Waters may incorporate a simple
jump out of water. The obstacles will be more substantial and may include a drop, a double, and a simple obstacle
out of water.

No. That sentence has to be very poorly worded – they probably mean the following:

Waters may incorporate a simple jump out of water. Courses may present obstacles that are more substantial and may include such obstacles as drops, doubles, and simple obstacles out of water.

Not “courses may include water jumps which include drops into water, doubles, and/or jumps out of water.”

This has to be proof of spectacular failure to write or communicate clearly.

[skip99]

@kcmel

I assume the drop is referring to a drop into water?

I read it as obstacles on the course, not specific to water. When you read Training it says: "Water may include a jump into water or a jump out of water." Since Novice specifies only out of water, I don’t know how there could possibly be a drop into water. I think it’s just worded very poorly.

[kcmel]

@beowulf

This has to be proof of spectacular failure to write or communicate clearly.

Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking. It sounds like that sentence was referring to water, but then I couldn’t figure out how that could relate to “doubles”.

[ndirish07]

I agree–I think that sentence is poorly written and was not meant to include a drop into water, and is not how I read that. I’m tempted to seek clarification from the USEF on the interpretation because I do think that’s poorly worded and may not be the intent of the rule.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

But when you read EV140, only BN is mentioned to only have a run through in. And there is further talk of revetting of banks to 1’8" which is what this drop and the others at this level that I’ve seen appear to be. The true novice drop on to dry land can be as much as 3’11"…that is a huge drop that I would be far more upset to see on a novice course (on to dry land) then the 1’8" step into water. And Retred…I’ve also lived on the West coast. That is absolutely a hard question to me for Novice. I just have a different opinion as to whether it is unfair. And I would say EVERY novice that I’ve seen at FairHill (to compare to Area II) recently is a tougher water question even if they didn’t have a “drop” into the water. Difference of opinion…and the rule is not clearly drafted.