Yes, the quote by Skip99 is what I was shown by the TD.
Don’t get me wrong, this thread was not started as a complaint, but rather looking at the legality of that particular jump.
It is what it is, some made it through, some didn’t.
For an event touted, as "An excellent event for young horses & the inexperienced rider. " and of “Average level of difficulty for those divisions”, it probably was not “fair”, and it sounds like it may or may not be legal 
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- WATER CROSSINGS.
Water at the Beginner Novice Level shall be a straightforward water crossing without obstacles. It shall be
flagged at the entrance. The minimum width of water shall be 5.0 meters (16’5"). If it is necessary to revett the
banks, the revetting shall not exceed 50 cm. (1’8").
Yes you’re right–that’s what I was thinking of. (Though, I guess I would imagine that if BN allows up to 50 cm revetting, so too would N). I always interpreted “banks” as referring to the entrance/exit but now that I read again I’m not sure it does–are the “banks” the flagged portions or any part of the complex? (The latter interpretation implies you can’t have a prelim drop >50cm into the side of a water complex that is also flagged for BN which of course happens all the time . . .) What does that rule mean?
The problem is the revet. For some reasons a great many horses that have never been schooled down a revetted bank, even a tiny one, school-type horses that will splash right on into any old water without that little hard lip at the edge, will drop anchor if there is revetting on the entrance. It’s a common equine thing, for some mysterious reason. That might not make sense to our brains as we see how elementary the problem is, but that is the equine brain for you.
What is unfair is that competitors were not informed weeks ahead of time so that they could school and prepare. Eventing is all about preparation, preparation, preparation - because that is the bottom line for safety in this sport. As seen when our OP, who had a horse that does water but didn’t understand the drop, ended up on the ground at something that was not part of what she knew to prepare for.
Yes, it is easy to school it first before going through the flags … but a) not all competitors get that information equally, as that specific coaching is not written on the course map and no one is in warm-up to tell every single rider, and b) schooling is done BEFORE the horse trials. Extra schooling while riding the course at the trials is a repeat of earlier schooling. It should not be the first time ever.
If the rules have changed to permit the drop, that needs to be highlighted to all competitors in the USEA with the same publicity and attention as the changes to the fall rule. Clearly that change means another training & preparation step for the riders. Clearly at that level the change is even more influential than the change in the fall rule, as it affected so many competitors and did cause at least one fall. A rule change should not be a surprise, and it should not be causing that much havoc at one horse trials.
Bad call all the way around, IMO.
Please kill all reasons for a variance in what is expected that begin with “when you move up”. Many competitors have no intention of ever moving up, and those competitors should be included in the rules and the USEA on equal footing. The rules are for this course right now, not for some theoretical imaginary course that might or might not happen in the future.
Years ago, under the rules at the time, there was an Area 9 horse trials that had revetted their water all the way around. The revetting on the Beg. Novice / Novice entry was less than a foot out of shallow water - it was nothing. And yet horse after horse after horse stopped cold at that revet entrance to water. None of these horses had ever gone T nor would they ever, they were of the school variety and lifetime BN’s and N’s. I watched one division where all but two horses at least hesitated and hung on the edge, even if they avoided a 20.
At that time, years ago, the USEA ended up requiring this horse trials to remove the revetting for the BN/N entrance. They did and the pauses, hesitations, stops & dumps of rider were no longer a big issue. The revetting language in the rules used to be very specific, and there were good reasons for that.
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And today I have learned what revetting is.
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Onward this is were I strongly disagree. I have NO problem with horses and or riders that never want to move up. There are levels that I will never move past. BUT this sport does have levels and the levels are SUPPOSED to build and prepare for the next level…whether or not an individual competitor has any inclination of moving up. So yes…that is part of the consideration at each level as to what is fair.
And if it has been on course for years…then it shouldn’t be a surprise. Riders should ask or investigate what is typically on courses they enter. Hell, there is a thread on here today that is asking exactly that question…but even then, you will still be surprised every once in a while.
Yes I am experienced…now. I too was once very inexperienced and I happen to often ride green horses. So while I do not consider that a true drop…and to me it is within the rules…I also understand and have been eliminated on horses who thought I was asking them to jump off a cliff with a similar question. It is a harder question for the level…and a very tough question for some horse and riders…but when you could have a drop significantly bigger on to dry ground for that level, I personally don’t think this is unfair. And to me they made it horse friendly as possible by not having the water cluttered or asking a question after.
There was a log jump into the water on Waredaca’s fall novice course a couple of years ago. It was my mare’s first novice. Fortunately, I had schooled her a good bit into some fun water complexes (thank you WinGreen and Gordonsdale in VA) and so it was no big deal. But I couldn’t believe they put it on there. It was not “black flagged” (LOL at Novice). You had to jump your little novice pony over a log and splash into the water. At some point before that I started making sure all my horses were schooled a level or two above what we were competing at because - level creep. I know that’s what you are “supposed” to do anyway, but I dunno, Novice is supposed to be Novice in my book. But nobody asks me so, I just make sure they are ready for the next level’s stuff- not necessarily height-wise but question-wise.
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This is why as someone who first started evening in 1979 I’m coming the HATE the USEA and am losing my passion for this sport. Yak, yak, yak about safety, but if the USEA can not clearly identify what is and what is not allowed at each level they are just blowing a bunch of hot air about safety. The OP fell off and she and her horse were “banged up” because the rules are not clear on this issue. This problem of clarity is well known and has been going on forever and they won’t address it. They should be horrified…but they won’t be.
I want to know the name of the event and I especially want to know the name of the TD! I will vote with my pocket book on this type of lousy officiating.
Quite some years ago I was walking a Preliminary XC at the Ky Horse Park. They were running a USEA event along side an FEI event so there were 2 sets of officials. In the Head of the Lake for my course I was going to have to negotiate around and CCI** jump in the water which wouldn’t have been a big deal except my very experienced horse would lock on hard on the entrance to anything in his path and pulling him off it would be difficult. I approached my TD and asked if the CCI** jump would be removed before my division and if not I was informing her that I planned on jumping it and she should inform the jump judges it was legal before hand so as not to create confusion. She said they were not planning to remove the jump, but called over the CCI TD and the 3 of us had a nice discussion. Both of these TDs were and are now extremely well known and respected, and both told me that a water to water question was completely inappropriate at Preliminary and if I read in the rule book I would see that nothing is said about them at Prelm but if you read Intermediate you would see them listed as introduced. Fundamentally the problem of clarity is that the levels are defined in the rulebook as much by the definitions of levels above them and if you don’t read the other levels it isn’t clear and TDs aren’t consistent. That my friend in how course creep happens. Today you see water to water at Training.
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Had the riders AND trainers known to expect it, I would have no problem with it.
But the DIDN’T know. Because they have been led to believe that this is NOT a question for this level. That is egregiously and shamefully unfair, inappropriate, and should not happen in this sport. Safety demands a far higher standard of clarity and communication.
How on earth can a question be judged “fair” if it is unexpected and 8 out of 13 failed at it? That’s a dangerous situation.
And, it blows up the trust the riders should be able to have in both the horse trials officials, and their governing organization. Riders just don’t know where it is ok to send their entry money. As our OP said in post # 24
“This was only my 3rd recognized show ever, and I will just stick to schooling shows from now on.”
There are just a couple of TD’s that will keep me away from a horse trial as both a competitor and a volunteer. If I find out who this one is, I’ll add the name to my short list of avoidables. 
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I think a drop at Novice is a lot too. I think the opinions here depend on who you are talking to, riders who have ridden at Training and above consistently see it as no bigge, while those Novice and below think it’s a big deal (sweeping generalization I know). I know a lot of riders have drops as their bogey fence, add water and that’s a very intense question to ask these riders. It would be one thing if it was found at all the events, but one out of how many? Seems unfair.
As far as finding out whats on the course, not everyone has the connections to be able to ask around. I think it might be something the rider needs to decide the day of if they want to attempt it.
The level creep reminds me of the Little Bromont course too. The courses were maxed out and spooky right from the start, which was to be expected as it is the weekend after Bromont. There was a giant duck on the Training course that my horse (who is a solid Training horse) was terrified of and I barely got her over her Novice fence because she was gawking at it. I was chuckling after thinking great, now I have to find a giant duck to school if these are going to be at Training level now…I would not have expected that until at least Prelim/Intermediate and above. Seems the average event horse now has to be prepared for a mini Rolex. Not sure if it’s a good or bad thing. Not sure where I can find a giant duck to school either lol
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Well, several of the people on this thread that disagree Novice should have drops in water have gone T or above, including me… I am in Area 1 and I have never seen a Novice course have a drop in water, but I pick my Area 1 competitions carefully as there are some that IMHO I do not like the layout or designs of. A handful of T courses do, but none of the T courses I ever ran did. Most in my area tend to have a jump 2 strides from water approach and a jump out, but rarely a drop in. Once you get to P+ drop-in waters are ubiquitous.
It’s not that “a drop into water” is or isn’t a big deal - it’s whether or not it’s appropriate for the level. IMHO, I don’t think it is appropriate for Novice, where the level is still considered introductory. In Novice, you are supposed to still be making a straightforward course with very few technical questions. Water itself is an introductory element, but combining the two elements is IMHO, a more advanced question. A drop into water is not a straightforward question for a Novice pair.
I know for me, if I was on my current project and that was a question on course I am sure he would jump it but I would be VERY mad - if he was a different horse and was shaken easily by unexpected questions on XC, which many green horses can be, it would burn me up because it is not appropriate for the level and can result in a major loss of confidence in rider/horse pair.
At both BN and N, historically and canonically (when you refer to the rule book) the universal question for water has typically been a water approach with a jump out at N, and a jump 2-3 strides after at BN. At championships you might see a jump a few strides before and a jump out at N.
Before you know it, you’ll see coffins at Novice.
Oh wait…
We need better definitions of what is appropriate per level. Because otherwise, what is happening here happens… level creep.
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I do think the drop at the water is unfair at Novice, no matter how tiny or inviting, especially in light of the ambiguity of the rules. Many horses have no trouble once introduced to down banks and drops but my horse has always been the type to need a ton of reinforcing before he’s confident enough to answer new questions in competition. It’s taken several years of practice to get him comfortable enough with drops into water to go Training - and he’s still really cautious about them and basically jumps them in slow-mo in competition. I know he will get more confident the more we go, but if we had seen that at one of our early Novices, there’s no way he would have gone. Thankfully most horse trials follow the idea that drops at Novice are unfair.
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You are not alone. My first event OTTB was the same way once we started competing T and schooling Prelim questions.
I remember one summer Stephie Baer spent a full hour with him trying to get him to drop down into water. He would not do it. He would do a drop happily, and would go through the water happily, but just would not commit to the two combined. She knew better than to push him until he quit so we ended up stopping before it escalated.
It took a long time, with a lot of schooling, for him to be okay with drops into water. And even then, I did them very sparingly as he was the type that just did not enjoy them. He needed to be on course and mentally in XC mode to commit - if we were just schooling, he didn’t answer it as confidently. If you put a log over the drop like you see in Prelim, he was much better.
Horses can’t see depth of water, and I am certain that was a big part of his lack of confidence for dropping down. For whatever reason in the horsey-brain it is an easier question to canter through a puddle of unknown depth than it is to jump down into it.
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@beowulf - yup! And if there is a little bit of the bank/drop sticking out at the bottom he will literally step down onto that before touching the water. My trainer couldn’t believe it the first time he ever did that. But that’s how careful he is with drops into water because they are still so worrisome to him!
+1. But remember that the USEF is responsible for rules. HEY MALCOLM- do you have any response to this?
I love the people in the USEA office, but the rules are USEF rules, not USEA rules. The person to contact at USEF is Shealagh Costello.
The parts of Appendix 1 that changed for 2017 are Beginner Novice and Modified. There were no changes to Novice. In fact that wording for Novice has been there since at least 2011, The Cross Country Guidelines were updated in Feb 2017, so there is no question of “catching up” for Novice.
I agree that the rules do not explicitly say that a drop into water is not allowed at Novice. But they also do not explicitly say that you can not have a Weldon’s Wall at Novice. The general interpretation is that if something is explicitly mentioned at Training, and not mentioned at Novice, it is probably not permitted at Novice.
The “drop” that is EXPECTED at Novice is a step down off a bank, as mentioned in Appendix 1. But this will NOT be 3’11 (the maximum recommended in the Guidelines is 2’9", but it is usually not even that).
The place you MIGHT see a bigger “drop” is a “normal” fence on a downhill slope. The drop in that case is measured from the top of the jump to the probable landing point. The ground can easily drop off quite a lot between the fence and the landing point. I have never measured a 3’11" drop at Novice, but I have seen ones that measured 3’6", even though they didn’t LOOK like a big drop.On the takeoff side the jump was about 2’6", measured from the takeoff spot.
PERSONALLY I would RATHER see simple drops into water at Novice. If the first time a horse sees a drop into water at competition (i.e., without the opportunity to school it first) is a full Training level drop, that can be pretty intimidating for both horse and rider. I would LIKE to have drops, like the one pictured, as a chance to work through any issues at Novice before tackling a bigger one at Training. But that is just my personal preference.
Possibly the best compromise is to have a small drop into water as an “option” fence, where the other option is quite substantial.
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I’ve had a Weldon’s Wall at Novice - the N3D at Waredaca.
There really needs to be an overhaul of the rules on what is permitted at the lower levels. There is way too much room for different interpretations.
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I whole heartedly agree with this. The problem with a level is that you have some of the people there who are starting that level and others working to move up. HTs would be smart to include course designs that satisfy both needs. Love love love the non-recognized HTs that have options on their courses! Definitely where people should step up and challenge themselves. That is the heart and spirit of eventing.
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Somewhere in the range of 12-14 years ago, I first got involved with a volunteer organization in which the rule books were a huge, huge chore to maintain - and I am talking maintenance only from the standpoint of the actual creation and revision of the written text and graphics and the subsequent formatting, production, distribution.
Since then, the times, they have changed. Seems like it shouldn’t be an impossible task for the national organizations to take a fresh look at the rules books and how they get delivered. Though they probably can’t actually change the rules as written without a well-defined process, many levels of review and various sign-offs, seems like there ought to be ways to include more pics and graphics that would clarify situations like this one - or maybe have an on-line site where clarifying questions that come from the membership, TDs, event organizers, course designers get posted and shared.
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The N3D is supposed to be a championship level course…and described as such. You can have trakehners at novice, so how is a small weldon’s wall at what should be almost a training level course be a surprise?
Again…what this thread shows me is that you can never make it clear enough…and what some people will expect or think is fair is not what another will think. And it has nothing to do with what level you have ridden. My opinion is formulated based on the grean horses I’ve had over the years…and absolutely I would have trouble with the little revetted bank in on some of them…and others that I’ve had wouldn’t bat an eye. It just depends on the horse but I recognize it as a nice introductory question. Would I thought it nicer to have as an option…absolutely. I wish they would put more options on Novice and Training level (hell even BN courses) as I think that is how you bridge the gap between levels. But that is more expensive…and isn’t something that I personally see often. People critize it as then causing people to move up to fast as if they take the options making some courses too soft. You can’t win.
Has there been course creep is an interesting question…I just looked at videos from 10 years ago…and in some ways, the courses look very similar (novice and training level videos). But one key difference to me has been expectations. It used to be you could take a green horse out at novice or training level and actually school in a competition setting. People didn’t look at you like you had two heads if your horse wasn’t perfect in warm up or perfect on course. They just knew you were riding a green horse. A score above 45 in dressage wasn’t unusual. Now…if your horse looks green…you risk getting a DR penalties or people thinking you are crazy. If you are new to the sport…and have a green moment as a rider people think you are not getting enough training and shouldn’t be at the show. That is a sad change to me. I’ve never had to school a horse so much to go novice…and it has NOTHING to do with the novice questions but everything to do with the fact that people now think you need to be perfect and competitive before going to a show. Off point I know…but thread likes these with different opinions just show you how hard it is to have a consensus.
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I just think the rules are written in a very confusing way. I would love clarification.
My best interpretation of:
BN:
Water at the Beginner Novice Level shall be a straightforward water crossing without obstacles. It shall be flagged at the entrance. The minimum width of water shall be 5.0 meters (16’5"). If it is necessary to revett the banks, the revetting shall not exceed 50 cm. (1’8").
N:
Waters may incorporate a simple jump out of water. The obstacles will be more substantial and may include a drop, a double, and a simple obstacle out of water. At such obstacles, the exit shall not be revetted.
Is that at BN (and presumably N) the edge of the water (in/out) can be revetted up to 50cm.
At novice, there shouldn’t be a jump into the water (aside from the allowed revetting), and there can be a simple jump out, but when there is a simple jump out the water exit shall not be revetted (suggesting that other circumstances the exit can be revetted, and that the entrance can always be revetted).
By that read the jump pictured would be legal (assuming it is <50 cm). But the rules could be read any number of ways and should really be clarified so everyone knows what to expect.
FWIW I’ve also found that some horses respond poorly to their first encounter with revetting (it’s a less natural approach to water, maybe). But I don’t think this is part of the same course creep as seeing corners and trakheners at novice. I actually think we saw more of this construction back in the day (80s/90s). Though, OverandOnward suggests that this might be due to a rule change years ago?
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