I’m curious. Is it inappropriate to mention the name of the event? If so,why?
Everyone who was there knows the jump was on the course, it can hardly be considered a secret…
I never personally encountered a drop into water at Novice on any of mine, but I have seen one at another event. I also have had a weldon’s wall at two different N events, and a 2-stride directly out of water (log out, two strides, roll top).
I know it would be kind of a pain for course designers, but I love the idea of having options when there are “hard” questions like that at the level. I personally would have loved to have some baby drops into water at N before we moved up to T. Now at T it seems like if we have a drop into water (which is the case at about half of our venues) it’s BIG. Would have been nice to meet those on course when they weren’t cliffs!
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Not to hijack but I wish USEA would post this on the event evaluation form. Although it doesn’t make sense if a competitor has an issue with the organizer/event organization that it go straight to them and not USEA first.
I didn’t personally have trouble with the Weldon’s Wall. I was just pointing out that it has appeared on a Novice course that I’ve seen because an above poster implied that a Weldon’s Wall was against the rules for Novice.
Luckily I schooled it at Wingreen the week before and we were super prepared. Like you said, one can expect the N3D to be a championship level course so we were ready for pretty much anything…however, not many schooling venues have such jumps. Once you’re at T or above, you’d expect your horse to be able to read the question and just go whether or not you’d schooled one the week before But at Novice, how many horses have seen a Weldon’s Wall? Just as another example…
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It isn’t a question or an opinion as to whether this is or is not an appropriate question for the level. It is the lack of communication. I’m spending a great deal of money and time to bring on young horses. Tell me what you expect and I will bring those horses prepared. BUT DO NOT SCREW UP MONTHS OF TRAINING by throwing questions at us that are ambiguous in the rule book. There is no excuse for it.
And the term “revetting”? Right, anyone think when the course builder or designer proposed building it he referred to it as a “revetted” bank? Seriously. Do you think the organizer and the TD referred to it as revetted? I’d lay a bet that every single one of them refer and have referred to that jump as the baby bank, the little drop or something along those lines. It only became “revetted” when they need to cover their a$$. But hey, “course is average difficulty.”
Please someone tell me the name of the event. I have young horses to protect.
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I’m not eventing right now, but I’m starting to get worried that when I have a horse that can event again, I’ll have to prep for bounces to a drop into the water at BN. :eek:
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And this is the bottom line … preparation. To properly prepare, rider and trainer have to know what they are preparing for.
One of the few things I really hate about eventing is not knowing what to expect, course to course, year to year. I do not want to spend months of preparation and hundreds of dollars to be faced with a hard decision about not running, or retiring on course, when faced with an obstacle that has traditionally not been part of the level.
For those that want LL courses to prepare riders and horses to move up, the very last thing that should be happening is to unpleasantly surprise and stress rider and horse so that they LOSE CONFIDENCE, not gain it. People and horses who are scared enough of their first attempt, under pressure on course and without appropriate introductory schooling, that they back off their progress, instead of growing it. A fright means a training problem, discourages them from moving up, and the surprise discourages returning to that venue. How is this good for the sport?
Too many Novice riders have done their VERY FIRST EVER trakhener-ditch, corner, baby Weldons and now a drop into water, ON COURSE - with no idea ahead of time they would be jumping that level of problem. Often on a horse that has never done it before. Nor did their trainers know ahead of time. This is fair? Developmental? Safe? Grows the sport?
Someone thinks that ‘development’ means people find out about a new level of obstacle on arrival at the horse trial. It’s nothing but a dirty trick by the CD and all the other officials who allow it.
In a sport that will always be in a constant struggle to maintain safety credibility due to its higher demands and higher risk, this is unconscionable. It’s bad horsemanship and bad rider development. And it’s a terrible indicator of the thinking at the top of the sport that is not just allowing, but encouraging the creep. The creep would not be happening otherwise.
My theory is that the top elite clique is tired of explaining to their British eventing friends the difference between British ‘novice’ (= Amer. Prelim) and American ‘novice’. But that’s their problem. Trying to force the American LL sport to become British is a serious error. And the way they are doing it … well, the accidents are coming. In the past the LL’s have been the safest end of the sport, but that could change. Clearly some falls are happening as a result of at least some of these surprises.
Given that eventing is supposedly trying to get more people into the sport, and they have to start at some level, level creep doesn’t seem very well thought-out re the long term impact. Some people can only see their own UL world and are disconnected from the LL realities.
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I get what you are saying here, OandO, and I wonder if some of why this happens is “old school” type thinking in that a true eventer is just supposed to go out and jump all the things.
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Yep, I’m an old school rider - and back in the old days I didn’t have near the advantages that you’all have today. I had a 4 yr old OTTB that I found standing behind a farm silo that had gotten ‘thrown off the bush tracks’ nicknamed JBoo by the track people, I lived hours away from any real eventing scene, I boarded at an all purpose barn that had an indoor arena and a flat hayfield to ride around, getting fit was ride down the edges of country roads. I never ever got to just go school a xc course, it was show up and compete. He did do a clinic up in the northern IL area and my horse was the only horse in the clinic that jumped all the xc, and it was back in the day when you started at Training, if you couldn’t find a small venue that had Pre-training, and he was jumping up to Prelim.
And do you want to know how? Gymnastics. He was taught from the very beginning to go forward. That was all we had standards, poles and poles on top of the barrels, that kind of gymnastic.
So yes the modern day eventer seems like a pampered to weanie to be blunt. Bring it on about your differences.
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Except @pony grandma jumps are a lot spookier now. The time you are referring to everything was very very natural looking, and followed the landscape. It is not surprising you wouldn’t need to school, as the horses would just feel like are out for a hack with some fences in the way.
I highly doubt there were drops with giant carved ducks sitting on the edge out of the water at that time.
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Plus they have opened up the sport to a large group of riders who will never go training, and who are a large degree funding the sport. So yes we are going to have a different mindset. If USEA is going to continue to try to attract these types of riders they need to be clear as to what is to be expected for each level. And that convoluted sentence about water, drops, doubles, etc. was anything but clear. From what was said even the TD, etc. had a big long discussion about it (and ended up getting it wrong apparently).
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I haven’t seen carved ducks at LL yet. spookier? we had genuine trappy. :lol: I remember one place where they tied some sticks up between some trees. And yes that is my point, the LL levels are about entertainment riding these days. At every HT someone will complain that something is not fair. And they want them dumbed down, it IS a competition and not everything should ride perfectly for everyone - lets get that mindset clear. And I am not talking beyond safety.
I stated previously on this thread that options should be a way to go. Make the easier options more time consuming and we’d at the least get to keep the competition part and still let everyone get around and get their money’s worth for the day. Because it is TOO expensive.
As to the fence in question that should be an option on that course, and I agree that the lower easier drops are the place to start, not training drops. One or two options on a course are not that hard to extra flag. And I would think that for an organizer that having the reputation for it would draw entries!
And I am of the opinion, while I’m in the mood - everyone agrees that the courses should be well described on their entries. Altho that may not be relatable bc the entries are made up in advance of some of the actual course design - ie the designer comes in and drags the fences around the week before the event then draws up the map.
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It does seem strange that no one has thought to modify that wording to be something even close to clear. There are so many ways to read that, none of which agree with the others. Why not simply fix the wording to mean what they intend and then there will not be issues like this.
Yes. This is part of the problem. But then that problem happens because there is nothing clear in the rules about what a certain level can and can not include.
The course designer should know that the entry says it is an inviting course for a newbie and design around that. They do not design the course in a vacuum.
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BS. There were tons more VERY vertical and airy fences that are super spooky to horses. There were crap built fences I wouldn’t jump today…oh and lots of verticle stone walls, uneven footing and tricky/trappy combinations. Lots of things that would scare the crap out of me today. The sport was NOT kinder and gentler back then either…hell, I can remember being second to last after dressage and finishing in the top 5 out of 20+ horses at training level because cross country wiped out the field. Same thing a novice…you used to (even 10-15 years ago) be able to move right up the leader board with clear jumping…OFTEN. IT was not easier…BUT it was marginally cheaper to show. And you went to events and sometimes got eliminated.
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Oh I’m aware…I’ve been eventing for 20 years!! LOL I think the difference between then and now is the riding is better now. More education. More training. More qualifications required. Those who could “get the job done” in terms of riding trappy fences went up the leaderboard. Or those on brave brave horses, plus people used to enter events based on what height they jumped having no experience because you didn’t have to qualify for Training level, its no wonder so many people didn’t make it around… Anyways you missed my point, it wasn’t that it was better or safer or easier…I simply said a lot of horses thrived over those fences because they had a more natural look. There was very limited prettied up jumps like now where that is %80 of the course.
I just don’t think saying
So yes the modern day eventer seems like a pampered to weanie to be blunt.
is correct. Perhaps they are more aware of not ruining their horses.
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Or we rode different horses. You used to NOT care so much about dressage…but picked good xc horses above all else. And goals were different. I’m not saying it is better or worse now…just different. I think we now have a lot of very quality horses and do agree, that over all the riding is general better.
But I also get tired of people always complaining about what is fair and not fair and how things need to be spelled out better. I actually disagree. I think there is MORE information about courses and what to expect now then there has ever been before. And courses will not always be perfect…that is why you have to make responsible choices while riding…at all levels. Then then TALK to the organizers and others. Volunteer to help an organizer flag a course with alternatives! Send in your review of the course. Most events get at most ONE event evaluation per 200 entries. Give them reasonable feed back…both good and bad.
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I still do this…and why I will likely never win at Training or Prelim on my mare :lol:
Agree about course descriptions…there was really limited info back then. First thing I always do Monday morning after an event is fill out the evaluation. I think it is really important and hope the OP does this!
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I also just want to be clear to the OP…I really do feel for them that they had a bad go. And do hope that you are able to work on your gelding’s distrust of drops into water…it is an issue that just takes time and miles. Many of us have been there…and with you in that water jump (I certainly have and am sure I will get planted in one again…its gross and never fun). I’ve also been planted in ditches…many times…and have actually had more horses with issues about ditches than water. Which is why it feels so lovely to me that my current water adverse horse is perfectly happy to jump ditches.
And if you event long enough…everyone gets a letter score instead of a number at some point. One of the most entertaining threads on this board is about the many ways we have gotten letter scores at events. Mine are the typical ones, fall off (typically into, or in front of, a ditch!)…or my novice horse who had to stop once and touch each fence before then easily jumping it. So by fence 5…we were eliminated. And yes…he had been out schooling a lot before that event and I thought we were prepared. He eventually went up through training level (after spending a year at novice…it took several events before he completed them clean and then many more before it became easy)… I eventually sold him, I needed to reduce my numbers because of work time pressures…and he took his next rider up to the 2* level (who was an ammy like me). You can work through the issues, it just takes time.
Oh yeah, so true. My favorite E of yet occurred when my clever gelding left the dressage arena literally via one trot stride. He used the plastic rail as a trot pole. Barely noticeable unless you were watching.
Then there are the fly bys on XC and in SJ. Embarrassing way to get the big E.
