Yeah, comparing across eras is hard. Man o’ War carried 130 pounds multiple times as a 2 year old. Secretariat et al didn’t. But while I think Big Red the original is still de mostest hoss, I don’t deny that others were also great horses.
I met John Henry and have a picture of me with him. He knew he was great. No question in his mind.
Whether he ever does or not, I don’t think Arrogate would have trouble with 12f.
Affirmed carried 130 lbs in the California Stakes at Hollywood and won by 5 lengths. In the Santa Anita Handicap he carried 128 to win and set a track record.
I recall that Seattle Slew, as a 4 year old, carried 128 in one of his matches with Affirmed at 124. Weight for age was a common practice during that period. Secretariat carried 126 but didn’t race beyond his derby year because of his syndication, so you are correct on that point.
Forego, Kelso, Dr. Fager, John Henry, Tom Fool. Buckpasser, Swaps, to name a few from those great racing decades, all could pack weight and win.
As for Arrogate racing at 12f I don’t think we’ll see it. Just a sign of the times, but Arrogate will never be tested to carry weight at any distance either. I would not be surprised to see him retired by the end of the year.
I said carried 130 multiple times AS A 2-YEAR OLD. It was an example of something that will never be reproduced in modern eras, thus illustrating how hard cross era comparison is. I wasn’t disputing Affirmed, Slew, and such carrying it later when they weren’t two. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
I see your point now. Thanks. Hard to get your arms around a juvenile colt carrying 130 even once. Hail to Reason started 22 times as a juvenile. Remarkable. No wonder, he eventually broke down. Different thinking back then.
Not really. The year Secretariat won the Derby the purse was $125,000 added. Using an inflation calculator that is “only” $625,000 in today’s dollars. The purse for the Derby last year was just under $2,400,000.
Purse money on the top end has gone up exponentially. Where as purse money for the other 95% of horses has remained somewhat flat. Hardly keeping up with inflation and not near enough to keep up with the cost of keeping a horse in training.
Because of the HUGE purse money offered in Japan where the average maiden race offers over $75,000. A decent but average “stakes horse” will easily earn far more than very good stakes horses in this country.
Neat article on comparing horses over time and the greatness or not of Arrogate.
Good article
dressagetraks, I concur… good article. Makes one re-think what defines ‘great’.
While I am not fond of anointing any horse as “the best” evah… looking at the list of horses Arrogate has beaten in 4 races is pretty impressive. :eek:
Gun Runner’s connections still high on him.
I’m still high on Gun Runner. 
I love watching a horse that never gives up. And he doesn’t look like a very big horse.
I have a big soft spot for Gun Runner. He was my Derby pick last year. I hope he gets a few good wins in his own right. It’s hard luck to brush up next to a horse like Arrogate!
That race was unbelievable. I completely forgot it was on and missed it. When I came back everybody was going crazy. Watching him pass the entire field like that, and doing it in a way that made it look easy, had my jaw on the floor. You almost forget that most horses could not make it through poor breaking luck like that.
It seems like the Dubai World Cup tends to be a little slower than similar races on U.S. tracks. I don’t think the speed is what counts so much, especially if it is slow because the race is run against other horses, not the clock. A horse which wins consistently with slow speeds AND fast times is a talented horse and Arrogate has won this slower race in Dubai against tough competition with a difficult course/positioning, and he has also won in track-record-breaking speeds. It is impressive. He is impressive.
I also caught myself watching that game little Gun Runner.
There’s no betting in Dubai, is there? I was impressed by the huge crowd that was there…I guess just to watch and enjoy the races.
I happened to catch Hoppertunity and Arrogate coming off the van at Santa Anita this afternoon on TVG. Hoppertunity walked off the van like the seasoned traveler he is. Arrogate bounced down the ramp and all the way down the shed row not looking at all the worse for wear given his recent travel and race itinerary.
Races in Dubai, as in every country outside of the US and Can, are timed from a standing start.
The clock starts as soon as the gate opens. By contrast in the US they are timed from a running start, and hroses are in full flight with clock starts.
Therefore the time of the race, more specifically the first quater, will be a couple of seconds slower than what you see in North America.
Here is a very good DRF article on the subject as it relates to USA TB racing.
http://www.drf.com/news/timing-every…cated-it-looks
In the USA, QH race times start when the gate opens also known as a standing start.
The other problem is Arrogate has a freak purse in there. Seven million dollars to the winner cranks his average per start to 6.5 million. (And of all his G1s it’s the least impressive–the field was minor and the only real expected competition did not fire at all.) So by earnings, yeah, he has the highest number, but that’s with one enormous score that’s well out of the norm even for higher purses. It earned him a ton of money, but given Chrome didn’t even show interest, was anyone really expecting any other horse to win? It was much less impressive than the Classic or the Travers.
People making arguments about greatness have more to use to argue in his favor just with the DWC. He won despite having absolutely every excuse short of losing the rider to not do so. And he didn’t even look like he was working for it.
Bob Baffert thought Frankel was an incredible horse. He has compared Arrogate as the dirt Frankel. Woops! Now the Brits have entered the conversation. :sigh: What’s next?
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