Durasole For Sore Footed Thin Soled horse.

[sassy45]

[QUOTE=stryder;8269215]
One of the great myths is that alfalfa is high in sugars. Here’s a link to papers presented by Standlee. Look for the “Low Forage Options” paper further down on the list.

http://standleeforage.com/nutrition/information/nutritional-papers

If may be some other reason he can’t have alfalfa, but high sugars shouldn’t be one of them.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link i don’t use standlee products my horse wont eat their timothy pellets. Thanks JB i treated his hoofs for thrush with no thrush powder.

[Frizzle]

So many people think alfalfa would be great for IR horses because it’s low NSC. But it is NOT recommended for IR/Cushings horses unless the horse has been on it while already metabolic and had zero problems. They’re not completely sure why, but many IR/Cushings horses get foot-sore, and in some cases laminitic or even foundered because of alfalfa. Not a good idea to recommend it. :no:

[Pehsness]

And yet in the past decade I’ve read numerous articles recommending alfalfa (hay, granted) for laminitic horses. Perhaps research has been updated since then or there is something specific to the progression of cushings that suggests otherwise, but I know I read research to back up the inclusion of alfalfa.

It was never a good idea when my mare was actively laminitic even on a low grade level. Which was pretty much always. I had to change boarding barns because there was too much alfalfa growing in the pastures.

And yet… once all was sorted out and settled down, she blossomed on a diet that includes… alfalfa.

Anyhoo, that’s beside this issue since your gelding can’t tolerate it, sassy, so good for you for knowing what works.

[JB]

It is newer that there’s all but proof there’s something in alfalfa that some metabolic horses can’t handle. It’s readily available to find, and pretty easy to find on www.safergrass.org

What you experienced is what many people are experiencing and is what Frizzle last said - sometimes after they stabilize, they can handle it, but not until then - exactly what you experienced. So given that this particular horse might be actively laminitic even on a low chronic grade, it shouldn’t be recommended, though can still be considered in the future. Maybe

You’re right that alfalfa has in the past been highly recommended for laminitic horses thinking it’s all and only about NSC. We know lots of older recommendations that likely contributed to the demise of horses who are now saved because they aren’t subject those well-meaning but inaccurate assumptions - low quality hay, straw, no supplements, jack the heels up, etc.

[Frizzle]

Exactly, JB. It’s frustrating that people constantly recommend alfalfa for IR/Cushings horses. How would these people feel if their advice caused a horse to be sore footed, or laminitic or foundered?

It’s fine to say that your metabolic horse does well on it, as long as it comes with a big fat caveat that many metabolic horses do not, and that it’s not recommended unless the owner is absolutely certain that it hasn’t caused the horse issues previously (and even then, one should be very cautious and vigilant).

[Calamber]

If this horse was treated for ulcers prior to March 2015 and he has been sore since then, I would retreat and he needs the hindgut addressed, the same product that works on gastric does not work on that. Among other things, yes, he does not have much foot left right now.

[sassy45]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8270355]
If this horse was treated for ulcers prior to March 2015 and he has been sore since then, I would retreat and he needs the hindgut addressed, the same product that works on gastric does not work on that. Among other things, yes, he does not have much foot left right now.[/QUOTE]

He was treated for ulcer in march then again in may 2015.I know from experience that alfalfa doesn’t work for this horse,even when he’s not having issues.

Was also treated for hind gut issues just recently so have that covered also. He’s very sore worse then when i first posted.

[Frizzle]

I would get him some boots and pads if he’s that sore, and pack him with either Sore No More poultice or Magic Cushion. Have you had any X-rays taken to determine sole depth, etc.?

[Pehsness]

[QUOTE=JB;8270076]
It is newer that there’s all but proof there’s something in alfalfa that some metabolic horses can’t handle. It’s readily available to find, and pretty easy to find on www.safergrass.org

What you experienced is what many people are experiencing and is what Frizzle last said - sometimes after they stabilize, they can handle it, but not until then - exactly what you experienced. So given that this particular horse might be actively laminitic even on a low chronic grade, it shouldn’t be recommended, though can still be considered in the future. Maybe

You’re right that alfalfa has in the past been highly recommended for laminitic horses thinking it’s all and only about NSC. We know lots of older recommendations that likely contributed to the demise of horses who are now saved because they aren’t subject those well-meaning but inaccurate assumptions - low quality hay, straw, no supplements, jack the heels up, etc.[/QUOTE]

thanks jb - at least I don’t feel crazy anymore then! So many times I went down that damn alfalfa road based on research and professional advice. Which, now that I think about it, also always recommended bedding in deep shavings, jacking the heels up, etc. I always managed to avoid those pitfalls from my own education, but the diet eluded me.

I haven’t been to safergrass in a long time. I should go see what is new.

[newhorsemommy]

You may have mentioned this and I missed it, but when were his ACTH levels checked last? If he’s been sore since March maybe he needs an increase in his pergolide dosage?

[sassy45]

[QUOTE=newhorsemommy;8270510]
You may have mentioned this and I missed it, but when were his ACTH levels checked last? If he’s been sore since March maybe he needs an increase in his pergolide dosage?[/QUOTE]

He was tested in july and his pergolide is being upped to 3mg for seasonal rise.After he’s on this dose for 2 to 3 weeks he’ll be re tested first part of september to make sure dosage is controlling ACTH levels.

Frizzle,he was xrayed in may has distal sinking sole’s are thin,he is currenly in hoof boots with pads. Really doesn’t help a ton.

[IPEsq]

Have you tried packing the feet inside the boots? I like Forshner’s even though it’s stinky. I wind up getting Magic Cushion stuck well on everything except the foot.

[Frizzle]

You might need different pads in the boots. For instance, Easycare makes a thicker (12mm?) pad that’s nice and cushy. Or, if he’s really bad, something like Soft Ride boots or Easyboot Clouds might be necessary. Packing the hooves should also help a bit.

It’s pretty bad if he’s sore in boots/pads. Does he have strong digital pulses?

[sassy45]

He’s has gel pads in his boots,pulses have been strong on and off.

[newhorsemommy]

Are you using a compounded pergolide or Prascend? If you’re not using Prascend it might be worth trying it for a month or so to see if it makes a difference.

[Pehsness]

I didn’t realize the horse was actively laminitic with heat and pulses. Poor guy. Have you gone the emergency diet route a la Kellen? Did that do anything? Might be worth a try if he’s sore in boots and pads with pulses. Or worth trying again/longer if you’ve already done it.

I know at the end of the day pergolide didn’t help us, shoeing, trimming, weird diet additives… the only thing was a bare bones nothing added diet and 24/7 outside living. THEN grass was ok, then the tim/alf was ok, then the ration balancer was ok, and then, finally, the appropriate concentrate added to the mix. Of course the trimming was integral throughout, but it wasn’t the magic cure I thought it would be when I started down this road so long ago.

Our diagnoses ranged from navicular to cushings and everything in between

I know this is all anecdotal, so it’s just a FWIW.

[sassy45]

[QUOTE=Pehsness;8272042]
I didn’t realize the horse was actively laminitic with heat and pulses. Poor guy. Have you gone the emergency diet route a la Kellen? Did that do anything? Might be worth a try if he’s sore in boots and pads with pulses. Or worth trying again/longer if you’ve already done it.

I know at the end of the day pergolide didn’t help us, shoeing, trimming, weird diet additives… the only thing was a bare bones nothing added diet and 24/7 outside living. THEN grass was ok, then the tim/alf was ok, then the ration balancer was ok, and then, finally, the appropriate concentrate added to the mix. Of course the trimming was integral throughout, but it wasn’t the magic cure I thought it would be when I started down this road so long ago.

Our diagnoses ranged from navicular to cushings and everything in between

I know this is all anecdotal, so it’s just a FWIW.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the input.The pergolide in his case is starting to help as dosage goes up for seasonal rise. Almost at the 3 mg dose and i’am seeing postive changes now. Foot soreness is still a major issue, he’s very sore today.

Emergency diet is only supposed to be temporary,his current diet is 8% ESC+ STARCH he’s also getting all he needs with added supplements that are IR, Cushings safe.

Hoof issues are from bad farrier work and also from laminitis and distal sinking,all of which last farrier failed to recognized, even with seeing xrays.

[Frizzle]

Since he has strong pulses, are you icing the front hooves? I would also definitely get some more therapeutic boots, like the Easyboot Clouds or Soft Rides.

[sassy45]

Yes i’v iced him when pulses are strong. Durasoled him last night he’s walking pretty much sound barefoot today.

[sassy45]

UPDATE He had a laminitis flare but got it under control. Was also re tested ACTH Glucose,insulin and leptin his numbers had gone up quite a bit from August testing.

Tightened up diet and in process of fixing trim doing so every week with small changes. He’s responding really well,still sore footed but has improved greatly,for a time he could hardly walk booted with pads.

Every day there is small improvements so think we are on our way to full recovery. Helps to have a great vet on board.