[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127111]
That’s just silly! 1: A human being is not a horse. Your anatomy is just not the same. 2: Have you ever seen an expert yoga practioner? When they sit in a pose with their legs behind their ears, boy, it sure looks like it would hurt. [/QUOTE]
So a human being is not a horse except when the human does yoga.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127343]
I have no issue with Isabell’s video. I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level. [/QUOTE]
Oh, good lord, do you? If not, then by your own logic you have no right to an opinion either.
Isabell’s video is really good if you would like a tutorial in the crank and spank, because she does it at several points. If you’re into that. Cranking and spanking, I mean. Also really good if you want to know how to ride a horse all curled up for 25 min. or so. And, as I mentioned on another thread, if you want to pretty much destroy its walk so it looks like it’s pacing when you finally let go of its face.
I see that Rollkur is still alive and well and showing at the WEG.
I am not on to debate, I came to see some lovely Dressage. ITs a shame that it is now so out in the open with the dutch team. But I just had one question, did I read several pages back that this rider actually broke her arm doing Rollkur on this same horse? Is that even possible? Just wondering.
Re: Adelinde’s Broken Arm
Just wanted to clarify: Adelinde DID NOT break her arm RK’ing Parzival. :sigh:
A poster from COTH knew Adelinde way back when and had posted a background story about how hot Parzival was and what Adelinde went through with him. Being bucked off numerous times, breaking her arm etc. etc.
Coreene might know more precise dates, but Adelinde did not start training with Sjef until some time after the the LV WC?
Until she started training with Sjef there were times she could not even get Parzival into the ring or through a whole test…
So, would Adelinde and Parzival be where they are now with a more traditional training method?
Who can say?
But at this stage, I am sure Adelinde would not be thinking of taking a chance changing a method that has worked for her and Parzival.
if you post the correct quote it was said that her arm was broken/torn due to pulling on the bit - ie: there was so much tension between her arm and his mouth that her arm snapped - that does not sound like it happened being bucked off.
and - how much tension would that be?
ps - maybe they would not be where they are , but it sure was a lot nicer looking back then 
" I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level."
What do you think, that we all ride merrygoround horses or ponies.
I personally have ridden ‘big’ horses, including my own 17.3 hand-1700lb TB.
It does not take the extreme pressures being demonstrated in dressage at WEG to ride classical dressage.
It does not take the hyperflexions demonstrated at WE to ride classical dressage.
[QUOTE=ZiggyStardust;5128469]Oh, good lord, do you? If not, then by your own logic you have no right to an opinion either.
Isabell’s video is really good if you would like a tutorial in the crank and spank, because she does it at several points. If you’re into that. Cranking and spanking, I mean.[/QUOTE]
Guess what. I loved Isabell’s video of schooling in a snaffle. No, I have not ridden a horse that size/powerful/talented, but I have a reasonable idea of the difficulty based on riding my own horse. Watching that video, I could feel everything she was doing and ride right along with her. I understood most of the reasoning behind the aiding. She knows just what to do to unlock the horse and get the horse through. She is a real rider!
mbm, The quote from Marieke was from this thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4344581&highlight=adelinde#post4344581
post #10.
Do you have a link to the article or quote where it says she broke her arm RK’ing Parzival?
Marieke was talking about 2001. Way before Adelinde was working with Sjef.
That’s not to say that she couldn’t have broken her arm hauling on him to stop bolting or bucking or whatever.
Much different than saying she broke her arm RK’ing Parzival.
[QUOTE=Fergs;5125262]
I’m probably reading too much into it, but upon watching the video I was really surprised by her reaction. She hardly glanced down at his mouth a couple times and then left the arena.
If it were me, and I was told my horse was bleeding from the mouth, I’d immediately dismount, unbuckle the noseband, and try to assess the damage.
I just think her reaction was inappropriately nonchalant…almost like she wasn’t all that surprised.[/QUOTE]
For the record, I was watching from a very close vantage point at a different angle from the video, and I saw Adelinde visibly slump after she looked at Parzival’s mouth. She was obviously devastated when she saw what the judge pointed out.
This is not to say that I don’t feel bad for the horse- I’m sure based on the number of pictures popping up that there is indeed a story here and that it hasn’t been pleasant for the horse, but I do think Adelinde was extremely disappointed. Some things are just too subtle to pick up on video but easily seen in person.
-Spectrum.
[QUOTE=claire;5128620]
mbm, The quote from Marieke was from this thread: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4344581&highlight=adelinde#post4344581
post #10.
Do you have a link to the article or quote where it says she broke her arm RK’ing Parzival?
Marieke was talking about 2001. Way before Adelinde was working with Sjef.
That’s not to say that she couldn’t have broken her arm hauling on him to stop bolting or bucking or whatever.
Much different than saying she broke her arm RK’ing Parzival.[/QUOTE]
i did not say anything about RK at all…
here is the quote:
"Marieke
Advanced
Join Date: Feb. 20, 2001
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbm
sorry, do you mean she broke her arm pulling on the horses mouth? that cant be right?
yes that is right.
She wasn’t pulling back just to clarify, but he would literally rip at your arms.
my initial comment here was about how AC is reefing on his face with all her weight… someone said that cant be, i said sure it could and she got her arm broken from the tension on the reins atone point…
and when i said all her weight against the contact i was speaking about in the show arena - so no rk involved.
mbm, You were replying to Lord Helpus and her post about the AC warm up photo from St. George.
It really isn’t clear that you weren’t talking about AC breaking her arm by RK’ing Parzival.
As these RK threads are poised for a train wreck anyway, it would be helpful if we were especially clear in our posts.
Especially, when an offhand remark can be very hurtful to a rider’s reputation.
JMVHO
Originally Posted by Lord Helpus
This picture of Ravel is nothing like the picture of the Dutch horse (Parzival?).
Ravel’s head is not all the way to his chest, nor is there any tension in SP’s arms or hands, nor in Ravel’s topline.
Compare the 2 pictures and they show an entirely different training technique: One is overbent (far be it from me to say why) and the other is a rider hauling on a horse’s mouth as hard as she can – The horse is showing tension? pain? fear? all of the above – in his face.
And she has 2 bits in his mouth, one with a longish shank. A curb chain (done up quite tightly the next day, hard to see here) and a crank noseband!
I’m surprised the horse hasn’t bucked her off – but I guess he is used to it. 
So much for being able to enjoy the beauty of a lovely dressage test. I will always have this picture in mind when seeing a GP dressage horse in the ring.
Sausages, politics and now dressage…
[QUOTE=spirithorse;5128583]
" I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level."
What do you think, that we all ride merrygoround horses or ponies.
I personally have ridden ‘big’ horses, including my own 17.3 hand-1700lb TB.
It does not take the extreme pressures being demonstrated in dressage at WEG to ride classical dressage.
It does not take the hyperflexions demonstrated at WE to ride classical dressage.[/QUOTE]
Spirithorse I’ve seen pics of you jumping… OY By the way you do not NEED chains to make a horse jump well.:lol:
[QUOTE=Kareen;5127656]
Ridgeback you should be ashamed. You are a shame for any equestrian. Ok with Bute… Go figure. Good thing you don’t have much saying in this sport. I feel ashamed I read and write on the same bulletin board as you do. Honestly where will you ever draw a line of what is unacceptable?[/QUOTE]
Amen.
[QUOTE=ltmac;5128759]
Amen.[/QUOTE]
I’m cruel LOL horses should be able to compete with a small amount of bute I think it is cruel that they can’t…Oh SHAME:eek::lol::lol::lol:
It really isn’t clear that you weren’t talking about AC breaking her arm by RK’ing Parzival.
Someone posted a link to an older CoTH thread about this … I thought it was mbm a few pages back …
Parzival yanked the reins out of her hands and broke her arm doing so … at least that was the take I got from the thread. Also stated that many trainers had turned down working with the horse because they felt he was dangerous.
Find that old thread …
Thank you claire for your input.
Dittos what Ridgeback has to say to Spirithorse.
He’s trying desperately to find legitimacy. BTW, I think sitting on the 17th or 18th thoracic vertebrae is cruel. Spirithorse advocates this. It’s on his website. Unless he’s removed it, the same way he’s removed several photos of his “riding”.
Seriously, Reverend, take riding lessons. LOTS of them.
If he did break her arm, no matter how, hats off to her for hanging in and working with him when no one else would. You do know what happens to most horses that fail in Europe, right? They go to slaughter.
Hmmm. Death or Rollkur? Rollkur, please. The lesser of two evils. (Don’t assume I’m advocating RK, but it beats death…)
There are analogies that are apt, and there are others that are not so much.
A human holding his chin to his chest is like talking about a horse standing on his head. There are obvious conformational differences that make the analogies inapt.
Stretching, weight bearing exercise, aerobic exercise, etc. are all required to prepare athletes–be they human or equine. :rolleyes: Training can be quite strenuous, particularly for world class athletes.
Please point out some valid stats about failed horses in Europe going to slaughter. Repeating this myth doesn’t make it any more true. What Belgium and France choose to have on their plates is horsemeat coming from young horses. Who would want to eat a piece of meat that is full of antipsychotic drugs that seem necessary to allow the horses to ‘survive’ this ‘sport’?
The alternative to being tortured like that for the sake of a piece of colored fabric would not be to get killed but to not have reins bearing 50 kilos of rabid woman tearing on your face all day.
What constantly gets ignored up here in the theoretical world (and I find it quite funny how many regulars up here feel they should be the only ones entitled to spend hours and hours typing on a keyboard while others should be out to improve their riding lol) is the fact that stopping this dreadful practice won’t mean the end of the sport but much rather is the only way out of a road downhill.
Why don’t we all vote for allowing drawreins in the ring? They would certainly come in handy if one of those unpleasant creatures dares to poke his nose out to release his salvatic glands and hyoid bone by an inch after spending hours of having them squeezed in these deathgrips that have become acceptable with this fashion.
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