[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127218]
Um Critter read what I wrote…SIGH[/QUOTE]
Right. He was probably spooking.
[QUOTE=crittertwitter;5127226]
Right. He was probably spooking.[/QUOTE]
Well Critter have you seen them ride in person?? Well I have…Like I said you guys will not let any facts get in your way…Yep you are right she rides around with her hands on her boobs…GIVE ME A BREAK
[QUOTE=SGray;5127175]
WEG 2010 snaffle warm up
http://www.topiberian.com/es/galeria-de-videos?task=videodirectlink&id=1471[/QUOTE]
:no: Jesus, if any trainer I’ve ever ridden with saw me hauling on a horse’s mouth like that, she’d have me out of the saddle in ten seconds and then would proceed tear me a new one.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127164]
Question: if riding a horse in hyperflexion that has the physical capacity to do it (like the yoga practitioner) can allow him to be ridden with less injury than other horses because of the increased core strength and flexibility in the soft tissue–wouldn’t it be abusive not to use this technique to keep him fit for competitive riding?[/QUOTE]
Are you claiming that rollkur, LDR, hyperflexion is the only way you can train a horse to use his body sufficiently to prevent injury? Really?
I’m not making any claims whatsoever.
I just think that in the absence of any objective, scientifically supported facts, nobody should be making any claims. Particularly claims that are intended to damage the reputation and business of a professional. That’s called a witch hunt.
Again, I ask: what is the purpose of rollkur? Just to get a horse behind the bit? Who wants that?
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127286]
I’m not making any claims whatsoever.
I just think that in the absence of any objective, scientifically supported facts, nobody should be making any claims. Particularly claims that are intended to damage the reputation and business of a professional. That’s called a witch hunt.[/QUOTE]
Well Jack, Dr. Hillary Clayton has shown that when a horse put his nose on his chest it helps build his core and rounds his back…Everything a dressage rider is looking for. Moderation is the key.
Well, don’t worry about it. Neither you, nor I dare say your trainer, will ever have the opportunity to ride like that-neither a horse like that nor in an international venue like that. :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=SGray;5127175]
WEG 2010 snaffle warm up
http://www.topiberian.com/es/galeria-de-videos?task=videodirectlink&id=1471[/QUOTE]
Well. At this point all I can say is I am really glad I didn’t have any dressage heroes to begin with.
I’d like to see the study repeated and peer reviewed. If it holds up, then it proves my point exactly.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;5127301]
I’d like to see the study repeated and peer reviewed. If it holds up, then it proves my point exactly.[/QUOTE]
Her study is scientifc she has the most high tech equipment she said she would love to study rollkur her studies are still underway but all date shows huge improvements with these exercises. Vets come from all over the world to listen to Dr. Clayton she is the expert!!!
[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127178]
I would have no problem with bute these are athletes. So you guys are looking at pics how do you know they weren’t walking on a lose rein and the horses were fresh and started to spook or bolt? That sure would explain her hands up by her chest. Point being you are not there you are looking at pics taking by people who have a clear agenda. I have no use for those PETA people who carry everything to the extreme. I’m going to guess I could sit on the sidelines and take pics of many of you riding and they would be just as disturbing if not more( a split second shot does not tell you the story). You know sometimes horses are more difficult on a certain day so things don’t always go as smoothly as one would want. I have seen amateurs inflict more pain physically and mentally on their horses then any of these top pros… I also realize these amateurs did not do this intentionally.[/QUOTE]
Apparently you haven’t seen the VIDEO, more than 20 min long…yes, there are points in the video where she releases the horse and it walks relaxed on a long rein, but what is shown in the pic you are trying to pass off as a “split second shot” unfortunately was NOT. Watch the tape.
[QUOTE=equinedriver;5127312]
Apparently you haven’t seen the VIDEO, more than 20 min long…yes, there are points in the video where she releases the horse and it walks relaxed on a long rein, but what is shown in the pic you are trying to pass off as a “split second shot” unfortunately was NOT. Watch the tape.[/QUOTE]
I have no issue with Isabell’s video. I also understand most of you have no idea what it is like to ride a horse that big and powerful and talented or at that level. Yes she is killing that horse in a snaffle:eek::lol::lol: :rolleyes:
I don’t think rollkur is “abusive.” I also don’t think the riders who use rollkur are bad trainers - the Dutch team is full of exceptionally talented and konwledgeable riders who I’m sure care deeply about their horses’ welfare. I’m pretty sure I would love to train with every one of them and would learn oodles.
The main sticking point for me is that the technique just really doesn’t jive with dressage principles. Nose to chest/shoulder with gaping mouths are just not things we should see at this level.
I agree that all of the emotion on the very anti-rollkur side kind of muddies the issue.
So, a simple question: who feels the use of rollkur is a sound/positive training technique and should be used in the place of other options?
And another: who would prefer to see this technique used on their horse if the horse if he were in FEI training with one of these trainers?
These questions remove the emotion of “abuse!” and “physical ruination!” and all of that silliness. Do you like the technique or not? Should it have a place in dressage training techniques and principles?
I guess my main qualm with rollkur is that it feels very anti-dressage to me. It’s ugly, it’s not subtle, and whether it causes any physical issues or not, I don’t think it’s a very “horse-friendly” technique. I could see potentially using this on the rare horse that needs it at home - only because there are so many individuals and so many horses that get spoiled as youngsters. However, once you are competing at the very highest level of our sport, I don’t think horse or rider should be needing that technique anymore.
It’s a shortcut. There are other ways. I don’t think it’s abusive, but I also don’t think it has a place in dressage. It just reads late night “breed show” workout to me (and that’s the world I grew up in, so I’ve seen a lot of them).
[QUOTE=bort84;5127352]
So, a simple question: who feels the use of rollkur is a sound/positive training technique and should be used in the place of other options?
Umm there is more than one way to skin a cat I don’t think it has to be one or the other people should do what they think will most improve their horse.
“Have you ever ridden a racehorse at a full gallop while trying to get it under control? I doubt it. Please, prove me wrong.”
Yes I have, my stallion in 2002…training him my self under the asupices of a licensed trainer in CA…oh by the way it was in SB
[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127305]
Her study is scientifc she has the most high tech equipment she said she would love to study rollkur her studies are still underway but all date shows huge improvements with these exercises. Vets come from all over the world to listen to Dr. Clayton she is the expert!!![/QUOTE]
I would love to see the study done WITH A RIDER ON THE HORSE. If a study is done with the horse being ridden, apples to apples, then I’ll start drinking the koolaid.
Oh, I bow to your superior horsemanship, Spirithorse. :rolleyes:
I take everything you write with a tablespoonful of salt.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;5127293]
Well Jack, Dr. Hillary Clayton has shown that when a horse put his nose on his chest it helps build his core and rounds his back…Everything a dressage rider is looking for. Moderation is the key.[/QUOTE]
Can you provide a link to the information about this study, results, etc?
Who knows ED, maybe that’s in her plan. If so, will her findings quiet down the RK debate? I doubt it.
Many here go on emotion rather than fact, logic, rationality or proof.
