Easy keeper losing weight

[S1969]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8068452]
A mix between St Augustine and argentine, I believe.

I know 5 lbs seems like nothing, but that was the diet he was on for years without a problem.[/QUOTE]

A full size horse in work cannot live on 5 lbs of hay…so the grass must have been providing quite a bit of nutritional value. Maybe not enough for all horses without additional hay/grain, but clearly your pasture was providing nutrition. Either that, or you are wrong in estimating the amount of hay your horse has previously gotten.

I agree about deworming schedule - could be a tapeworm issue. Dental issue is also a possibility. I agree that having the vet out to draw blood and give an exam is important if your easy keeper has suddenly dropped so much weight.

I’d also give alfalfa cubes or beet pulp in addition to a senior grain at this point. Even 20lbs of hay is not very much if you want a horse to gain weight while in work.

[StormyDay]

Vet came out today. His is a 4/9. She was surprised because his muscle condition is good. Heart, lungs, gut, all normal. Temp normal. No arrhythmia. His teeth looked good. She is going to run a full blood test, I should get results tomorrow.

[StormyDay]

Got the blood result back. He has low red blood cell counts, so we are starting him on red cell.

[JB]

Was he exercised before having blood drawn?

How low is “low”?

[StormyDay]

No, he had just finished breakfast. I will know numbers as soon as the vet sends the full results over.

[JB]

I would not be concerned if he’s just out of the normal range - that’s normal for drawing blood from a resting horse. They really should be exercised for at least a few minutes prior, so the stored RBCs in the spleen will be released to get a much more accurate picture.

Now, if he’s WAY below normal, then yes, but I would also investigate why, as true anemia in horses is pretty rare, so when a horse tests are truly anemic, it’s almost always a symptom of something causing blood loss, like bleeding ulcers. In face, severe ulcers could explain a lot of his symptoms.

[SLW]

I went through this last spring with my easy keeper mare. After 2 months of heavy grain rations with no improvement I asked my vet to pull blood. It turned out that she had a liver inflammation. I readjusted her grain, did a course of meds and the recheck 8 weeks later showed the inflammation was gone. Nothing beat a blood panel and chemistry to figure out the problem. Good luck.

[StormyDay]

These were the ones out of the ordinary:
Glucose: 60 Normal range: 70-125
CO2: 36 normal: 22-34
Erythrocytes RBC: 6.24 normal: 6.80-12.50
Hemoglobin: 10.7 normal: 11.0-19.0
Seg Neutrophils: 3.660 normal: 3.70-8.58
Monocytes: 0.061 normal: 0.10-0.90

[sdlbredfan]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8074204]
Got the blood result back. He has low red blood cell counts, so we are starting him on red cell.[/QUOTE]

NO!!! If your Vet does not know that equines store their RBCs in their spleen, and you will not get a true picture of RBC value with a standard blood draw, then you need a more knowledgeable Vet. Red Cell is not good stuff, in many cases can worsen some other problems. http://www.thehorse.com/articles/31418/researchers-identify-link-between-insulin-resistance-iron-overload

Based on what I, and many others have noted and commented upon, this horse has an inadequate nutritional content diet right now. That means the horse is much more likely to have a folate-deficiency anemia than an iron-deficiency one.

Here are some other useful links for you:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_horses/nutritional_diseases_of_horses.html - especially note this “diron eficiency may be secondary to parasitism or chronic blood loss and results in microcytic, hypochromic anemia. However, it is highly unlikely that even anemic horses are iron deficient. Iron excess interferes with copper metabolism and also causes microcytic, hypochromic anemia. Blood transferrin concentrations are the most reliable method to determine the iron status of a horse.”
I believe only K-State does the highly specific iron testing mentioned, by the way.

http://equine.uckele.com/Resources-Articles/cat/drkellon/post/BloodBuildingDrKellon/

http://thenaturallyhealthyhorse.com/iron-overload-in-horses/

[StormyDay]

I’m so confused now. Is there a place i can send blood out to get a vitamin/mineral test? I really don’t want to have the vet out again

[JustJump]

Are you planning on drawing the blood yourself? Or using the same blood that was already tested? Was it even retained?

[JustJump]

There is a great dentist who practices in your area who is also a vet, and good at figuring things out. If he is the one you use, he’ll want to hear about this problem. If is isn’t the one you are using, you might consider consulting him about this case.

http://theequinepractice.com

[SLW]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8079541]
I’m so confused now. Is there a place i can send blood out to get a vitamin/mineral test? I really don’t want to have the vet out again[/QUOTE]

After interpreting the lab work your vet said use Red Cell. What is her timeline to see improvement? What is her next step if there is no improvement and how far down in condition can you risk your horse going? When is your vet due to have her baby- IOW, will she be able to help you through this entire event or do you need to bring in someone else now?

Good luck.

[M_O_Connor]

[QUOTE=S1969;8069883]
A full size horse in work cannot live on 5 lbs of hay…so the grass must have been providing quite a bit of nutritional value. Maybe not enough for all horses without additional hay/grain, but clearly your pasture was providing nutrition. Either that, or you are wrong in estimating the amount of hay your horse has previously gotten.

I agree about deworming schedule - could be a tapeworm issue. Dental issue is also a possibility. I agree that having the vet out to draw blood and give an exam is important if your easy keeper has suddenly dropped so much weight.

I’d also give alfalfa cubes or beet pulp in addition to a senior grain at this point. Even 20lbs of hay is not very much if you want a horse to gain weight while in work.[/QUOTE]

This.

Of course the ‘pasture’ in the Wellington area can deceive newcomers, but the older fields do actually have some grazing value (otherwise there would be many more humane cases).

Maintenance of weight (not losing or gaining) requires a (not in work) horse to consume roughage in a quantity equal to at least 1.5% of its body weight on a daily basis. A horse will lose weight if consuming less than that. 2% in bodyweight daily is required to gain. If working, add to these percentages.

Either your “horse” is actually a 350 lb pony, or he has been consuming far more roughage than you are aware of. It could be that your measurement of how much hay he has been getting is not at all accurate.

A 1000 lb horse will need a minimum of 15lbs of hay daily to maintain bodyweight, and at least 20lbs daily to gain weight, and that’s not counting calories expended during exercise (whether it’s ‘work’ or being chased around a field by other horses*).

To supply vitamins and minerals, an easy keeper can be given a concentrated ration balancer. Otherwise, a complete senior feed supplied at the recommended rate (refer to packaging and your horse’s ideal weight) will provide vitamins, minerals and other micronutrients along with additional calories.

*Has your horse’s turnout situation been changed? Has the pecking order been disrupted? Is he lower down the totem pole than he used to be, or sharing mealtimes with a more aggressive pasture mate?

(PS If your vet is unable to provide you with advice and support because of her pregnancy, it would seem advisable to discuss what her plan is for coverage both in the immediate and longer term future–don’t wait for an emergency to find this out!)

[JB]

I assume that means you have the tubes and can pull blood yourself? If so, then just get those to your vet.

You can do a blood and urine analysis if you want to look at various mineral levels - the electrolytes are easier to see in the urine than the blood.

Here’s a good article on what you can reasonably test
http://www.ker.com/library/advances/120.pdf

[StormyDay]

I can do the blood myself.
I got the fecal test back. He has a heavy load of strongyles! Which is weird since I deworm for those! So I am talking to the vet about possible treatments for a case of resistant strongyles. The strongyles explain pretty much all of his symptoms. Though I am worried about having a resistant strain!
Plan is to retest his iron levels in a month, along with do another fecal.

[JB]

[QUOTE=StormyDay;8083467]
I can do the blood myself.
I got the fecal test back. He has a heavy load of strongyles! Which is weird since I deworm for those! So I am talking to the vet about possible treatments for a case of resistant strongyles. The strongyles explain pretty much all of his symptoms. Though I am worried about having a resistant strain!
Plan is to retest his iron levels in a month, along with do another fecal.[/QUOTE]
I would not be concerned about resistant strongyles at this point. You were in the range post-deworming where you are getting a pretty good picture of what his natural immune system can handle. It’s been more than 2 months since his ivermectin.

Now what you do depends on how far you want to go. This is the perfect opportunity to see if your farm has fenbendazole- and/or pyrantel pamoate -resistant strongyles. Of those 2 fen is more likely to have more resistance.

So, what I would do is dose with fenbendazole (Panacur, Safeguard) and do a FEC in 10 days to see what % reduction you have (I’m assuming you have an actual count, not just, say, a 4 on a 1-5 scale). If it’s less than 85% reduction, then don’t use fen on that farm again for a long time (an exception would be a double dose for foals for ascarids).

Do a deworming then with pyrantel pamoate (Strongid paste) and another FEC 10 days later. Again, looking for < 85% reduction. If not, see above.

THEN you do an ivermectin-, or moxidectin (preferable in the Spring, if he’s carrying enough weight)-based deworming, and to settle any resistance questions, another FEC 10 days later. Include praziquantel in this one, so Quest Plus or Equimax.

Doing a FEC a month after deworming is not the right time to check anything. It’s too soon for checking his immune system’s ability to keep things in check, and it’s too late for a resistance test.

[JustJump]

DIY blood tests? :eek:

[JB]

I’m taking that to mean she can pull the blood herself

At least that eliminates a vet call to come do it, but it’s still got to be stored and shipped properly to the vet to run the tests.

[StormyDay]

Yes I can pull it myself! Wait, my 20$ chemistry test won’t work!! Why not?? It came with a tiny microscope! :lol: